With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.
“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”
Toxic masculinity, feeding itself, empowered by the forces of capital who desires culture war above class war.
I love just saying “toxic masculinity” anywhere online, even if you’re deep in the bowels of Lemmy, you will get a few reactionary turds who just see the term and lose all cognitive ability to think and mash the downvote button between heated breaths and tears streaming down their faces.
Isn’t tate already old news for the manosphere?
The article illustrate the Hypergamy concept. The men in that case might feel inadequacy after leaving the traditional role of breadwinner, witch caused cognitive dissonance in his leftist views and make him vulnerable to the propaganda.
witch caused cognitive dissonance
Ahhh it was the witches all along
Before we rush to judgment about witches. We really should test them to make sure that they are witches.
Ooh maybe some sort of test in the water?
We have to see if the witches float!
YES! A swimsuit competition!
i think if your husband has weird ideas about women you’re supposed to argue with him or something
Ideally, you have these “arguments” well ahead of time before you marry someone who has fucked up attitudes about anyone, anywhere.
People can absolutely change and “wake up” to realize that the shit they’re holding onto is going to cost them their future and they will absolutely change for the better when they care for someone else and want a better future. But not everyone is willing or capable of self-examination, and many are also not willing or capable of making changes.
Find out before you both have your names on a mortgage or carton of eggs together.
Im in a bubble where these guys are like the most laughable parody of themselves so maybe I’m biased but… I mean nobody is taking this kind of stuff serious right? I mean cool, free speech and such but dumb behavior had consequences, right?
People absolutely take this stuff seriously. The problem is the most bone headed guys are the ones likely to fall for this stuff. Once they’re sucked in it’s hard to convince them otherwise.
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Yeah, I’m studying to be a teacher and have had several internships during my education.
Young teen boys, 12-15, are into it. They aren’t a majority, but they exist. One of the students came to me and asked if I knew what the matrix was. He was really into redpill shit! Had many conversations with him and hope he hasn’t gone deeper.
The redpill shit can look really innocent at first. They start off with a lot of talk about self improvement, and that’s great and all. It’s just not too many steps away from the gaslight your bitch stuff.
To answer the headline: divorce, I hope.
Divorce is in many case the trigger. The MGTOW-community was/is a lot of divorced men who feel mistreated by society, and blame women for it.
I remember being excited and thinking maybe I had found my people when I first heard about MGTOW thinking it would be dudes who realized maybe dating wasn’t for them and instead were just focusing on improving themselves. Then I looked at their subreddit and no, just a shitton of misogyny.
That’s the worst part of MGTOW. It’s a nice premise, and then they just dumped toxic waste on it.
Self improvement is a trap and misogyny is the scapegoat. “I have a nice car/house/job/makes lots of money now but still women won’t fuck me, they must be evil!”. It’s always all about becoming some übermensh but never about finding a social context, which is what these men actually need.
When economic independence is rare, divorce is rare.
I guess getting rid of no fault divorces helps that too
there was plenty of warning signs for Years, even before the pandemic. if you look at how pickup artist operate, and then go on youtube. Tate isnt even a new phenemon, hes a culmination of the above problems. hes just the latest symptom, as was JOE ROGAN.
Just based on what I see women doing around me all the time, there were probably some warning signs. Looking for a dude that’s “traditional” or whatever is asking for a dude that’s going to see you like a form of livestock. It’s partly a politics thing, but largely an assholes thing.
41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
WTF those are both shockingly high.
If you just translate the figures to “41% of young men, 12% of young women are stupid assholes”, they make a bit more sense.
There are many different ways to be a stupid asshole, and you can even do it while at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum.
I support Tate…
…Being locked in prison for the rest of his life.
But first I would really like him to receive a serious public ass-beating, recorded for posterity. I feel like that would be worse for him than the prison time.
There isn’t anything wrong with a traditional worldview but it certainly doesn’t fit most modern relationships. Either way I think all young men go through an idiot phase where it’s easier to complain about the systems in place then to be introspective and improve yourself. I’m saying most people usually go through a redpill phase and if they are able to sympathize then it’s usually a short phase. The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
Not unable, unwilling. It requires them to be ‘weak’ and concede that they may be part of the problem. I say this as a man that had to work through some of this shit when I was young.
Depends what you mean by “traditional worldview”. I’ll go ahead and say young earth creationism shows a lack of openness to objective reality when it’s not personally convenient.
In the context I mean, what gets justified with tradition is behavior like putting on a fake persona when dating, pushing boundaries, disregarding the rights of strangers around them and generally being an entitled, eventually controlling dickwad. They’ll say that’s what men have always done, and boys will be boys or whatever, but I’m certain nobody had to “twist their arm”.
When I see one of those dudes dragging a girl around, I have to wonder if she’s chasing a kink. That’s not how you go about it, if so. 50 Shades of Grey was fiction.
I want to say that’s a young person thing but I’m not really sure. I know the world would be a much better place if say Alan Watts was a household name instead of Andrew Tate.
Get a new partner… they’re gone
When I date people, I don’t allow myself to go forward without completing a mutual background check. I ask questions and talk about politics, tell about situations I’ve encountered and listen attentively.
I want to know about the other person’s world views, decision-making and problem-solving methods - and to inform them about my own. I want to know how they tell apart truth from a lie, what they think about state and centralization, wealth and poverty, science and religion, civil rights and minorities - and to inform them about what I think, so they could make informed decisions.
Ironically, I don’t wish to know what party they vote for - because the selection is shitty and I laugh about my own past choices. :)
Recalling situations where world views mismatched - I’ve had to part ways with one person because she was too spiritual. Two people subscribed to odd conspiracy theories. One person’s goals in life warned me about excessive self-interest and lack of care about others.
P.S.
Trying to switch perspective and step into the shoes of a woman, I think it can be a warning sign if the other person gives excessive gifts or feels “obligated to take care” - one should inquire about the reason. I would also be wary of people who eagerly accept me as the new centerpoint of their life - it might indicate an obsessive tendency and severe symptoms if the relation should break. If the other person exhibited jealousy about friends or controlling behaviour, that would be a definite warning sign to me.
P.P.S.
As for social media, yes, it can corrupt people’s perception of reality. How to pull them out of the bog, no idea. As for how to avoid them getting there: no algorithmically steered social media.
gives excessive gifts
Huge red flag. Becomes a tool of control (I was married into a wealthy family.)
The big thing is that they can change their personality after marriage - once you are trapped. There were red flags there, which I shouldn’t have ignored, but it was like night and day.
Mine started getting interested in stuff like religion - noticed that his pastor friend got to play WoW all day while the wife basically did everything.
I think it’s a good strategy but it’s not fool proof. They’ll tell you what you want to hear and then slowly start pushing your boundaries. Or they’ll pretend to be one way only to get what they want out of you.
Sure, but I don’t think it’s meant to be foolproof, it sounds like a great way to start
My daughter won’t even talk to guys who in any way support Andrew Tate or MAGA influencers. They aren’t incels, they choose to be celibate by openly displaying their hatred for women.
All incelularity is self-inflicted. They put up all the barriers. I mean, it’s obvious on the face of it; there is obviously no conspiracy to keep this one guy celibate. If there are factors that are keeping him celibate, they are entirely his own.
I’m not trying to defend them, but the lonely guy to incel pipeline is a real thing. They are targeted, propagandized, and monetized. I believe people are responsible for the decisions they make, so I’m not saying they aren’t to blame for that, but I am saying it’s more complex than just that.
Couple that with the fact that it’s getting harder and harder to go out and socialize with real people due to everything getting more expensive (except wages). People are losing their third space and are replacing it with these grifter online forums, it’s far more affordable than going to a bar or social place, more and more people are staying home these days.
There was a great interview with a woman who had written a book on the Manosphere and she said that it’s “funnel-shaped,” which is to say that the first stages are nowhere near as extreme as the ones they lead to. It starts off by talking to lonely young men and telling them that their feelings are valid and that they have value, both of which are things that young men very much do need to hear! But the pipeline then moves them from that to “Your feelings of isolation aren’t your fault” to “Your negative feelings are women’s fault,” and then you’re off the primrose path to “Women aren’t people” and “Women deserve any horrible treatment you can think of.”
But the earliest stages are ones of finding young men that aren’t having their emotional or structural needs met, and filling that vacuum in.
And they seem to be the only ones talking toyoung boys so…
You become an incel the moment you externalize all the blame. It is their defining characteristic, that their celibacy is every- and anyone’s fault but their own.
Perhaps, but maybe it doesn’t matter. I want to live in a society where people are kind to one another, where they listen to one another, and where they have the opportunity to be prosperous. From my experience the place I was born, (BC, Canada), is trending away from that. I believe helping these lost youngsters become better people would help reverse that trend, and I think one of the first steps towards helping them is to have more empathy.
Lots of people have an external locus of control and I don’t know if that’s easily changed, but I do know it doesn’t mean that they have to be hateful.
I believe that process starts with identifying, and then aiding. But we can’t break through to any of these people so long as our digital landscapes are just stomping grounds for this idealogy. I honestly can’t believe hate and bigotry have caught this much fire after Tolkein created the perfect archetypes for men to follow.
Maybe they’re gay
EDIT: and won’t admit it so they overcompensate
Nuh uh, fuck that sweety, that’s some straight boy shit for sure.
I have a cousin who was really obnoxious and macho. Then he came out of the closet and dropped all that shit. When people can’t be their authentic selves, they tend to lash out in strange ways. Homophobia was drilled into my cousin at a young age so it was really hard for him to accept who he is.
Yeah as a lesbian I’ve seen gay boy misogyny and this ain’t it
What I mean is maybe they’re gay and unable to admit it so they overcompensate.
Nothing wrong with being gay, there is something wrong with being repressed. People who can’t be themselves lash out at others. Men with repressed femininity hate women and out gay men for being openly feminine.
I’ve known men who were kind, gentle boys but were forced into ‘tough boy’ roles by either their parents or their peers/bullies. They become angry and violent and everyone around them never understood how it happened.
Andrew Tate is absolutely the sort of guy that would shoot Kevin Spacey in American Beauty
Isn’t shooting Kevin spacey a good thing?
Lol imagine downvoting the shooting of a serial abuser.
Haha right? He’s a pedo
That’s what I meant. Apologies if that wasn’t obvious
There’s nothing wrong with being repressed, there’s something wrong with taking it out on others in a negative way.
The Patriarchy has always been homoerotic. Even society’s choice of male sex symbols, the Hemsworth type, was made by men. Turns out what women actually like is scrawny Koreans.
Back in my day when I was living on the street we called them volcels. And by back in my day I mean a few years ago, and by the street I mean discord.
You leave them.
Occasionally my partner does or says some things that remind me of the “manosphere” aka 4chan neckbeards.
And when it happens, we talk about it. I don’t pretend or let it go as “he doesn’t mean it” or “he doesn’t know what he’s saying”. I don’t get mad and he doesn’t get mad. We have an adult discussion and I’m careful not to talk down to him.
A perfect example was that he sometimes says “females” when he means “women”. I explain that it’s not a swear word but it’s still derogatory. I explain why. Once I did, he understood and stopped doing it.
It doesn’t have to be a big deal! Communication is key!
i don’t know how could anyone watch Star Trek DS9 and still call women “females” like a Ferengi
Funny you say that! He doesn’t do it anymore but I just sent him this meme from !tenforward@lemmy.world!
Communication is key
Sure, but honestly it sounds tiring if this kind of discussion is a recurring thing.
Agreed! But for me it’s not all that often, luckily.
As long as you also made sure that if he does say it again he has to pronounce it like tamales
I laughed at this and now I’m going to do that in my head whenever I see that word
Good luck with that. A red flag is a red flag.
I appreciate that he is willing to learn and grow. We all make mistakes. If you understand why it’s offensive and keep doing it, yeah red flag.
I think the ability to change with new information is admirable.
It is admirable and increasingly rare.
I’m sure this person really appreciates this warning about a person that they know and you don’t
It’s similar to how I appreciate your reply.
I think it depends on how often they’re coming up with dubious takes, and how often there are repeats.
Like if you have to explain that gay people are just trying to live life, and that’s fixing misinformation they got as a youth, fine. Good, even. But if you have that talk and then have to have to again a month later because they “forgot” or picked up more bad ideas? Concerning.
Friend of a friend was always getting talks to patch up his dicey world view, but then he’d go back to the same YouTube or shitty friends and come back two weeks later with a fresh batch of bad ideas. Really have to get to the root of the problem
“Do you regularly watch videos by Jordan Peterson?” kinda needs to become one of those before-first-date screening questions.
Very direct. They could lie about it. Better to ask conceptually I think.
“What can you tell me about jungian archetypes?”
Ask about Lex Fridman: at least for tech geeks it is the antichamber to Joe Rogan and the pandemonium thereafter.
Ok. Tell me about Lex Fridman. I’ve never read that name before.
I believe him to be of Russian descent, and playing hard on the American stereotype of that.
He has had a troubled academic career due to a faulty paper trying to prove Tesla’s Autopilot to make people more attentive.
He has a long standing podcast in which he interviews mostly techbros and politicians such as Musk, Carmack, Trump, Modi and the like for hours at a time. He never really challenges them and lets them speak on whatever they bring up, turning his podcasts into hours-long PR stunts.
Probably a Russian asset, given that in this comment to his conversation with Zelensky he reiterated Trump/Vance talking points.
I have noticed that people who later reveal themselves to be into Joe Rogan and the like first test the waters by asking you if you listened to the latest Fridman podcast. I work in a tech consultancy so I have quite a sample, but it could also be a bubble.
Andrew Rousso made a spot on imitation of the guy here, as usual. It’s worth listening to a Lex Fridman podcast intro just to enjoy Rousso’s imitation.
either that or: ben shapiro, or joe roegan videos.
Does UFC count as watching Joe Rogan videos even if his commentary annoys the shit out of you and you wish he had no part in it? Because he already pisses me off this would be the last straw.
I groan every time they announce he’s on the commentary team. It’s clear he doesn’t actively watch the sport anymore, and he simply can’t avoid hyperbole.
Seriously, I have learned to ignore him so well that last time he was not on the team it took me half the fight to realize "Where is that annoying fucking Rogan has he really not said shit this whole fii… oooohhh sweet. lol
What if the answer is yes, but I’m laughing at him the whole time?
What’s about him is in the least bit funny or entertaining?
Views = money/support for them. Doesn’t matter if you’re laughing or not.
Still shows that you’ve got a whole lot of time to waste and that you might be susceptible to eventually fall down the rabbit hole
I think you have right attitude. No one is immune to propaganda, and you really need to be careful in choosing what you consume.
Ah yes, ridicule famously being a small step from endorsement.
You can ridicule it all you want, if you keep watching it you’re one message you agree with away from starting to consider that “hey, maybe what he’s saying isn’t all wrong” and then down the spiral you go.
There’s tons of people who were on the left that lived an event that traumatized them and they then turned to the right.
Alt-Right playbook needs to be required reading for everyone online.
You needs to screen your partners SoMe algorithm
It’s surprising to me that married people are falling for this shit. I thought it was just incels desperate for anything that might give them a chance or an excuse.
There are actors building influence who benefit by more males being this way. They target ladies too, but in different ways. They are determined and focused.
it isn’t about being single, its about the modern hell world instilling extreme helplessness in vulnerable people, and they seek any answers whatsoever. the manosphere happily provides ‘answers’ in exchange for money
It has also seeped into every aspect of male culture. You want to watch a YouTube show about cars? Sure. The first couple episodes are normal and then they start sliding in dumb shit.
You listen to a podcast about working out? Same thing goes. It’s little stuff here and there. Sometimes it starts as a reoccurring joke, but it keeps happening until they actually believe.
I also find there are a lot of young people who aren’t comfortable on computers and basically believe whatever they see on the internet, much like an older generation.
I opened a new YouTube account and watched some videogame videos. Rust if you’re curious. I’m a woman and this game is played by mostly men. At some point my husband was struggling with his mental health, we were in gridlock so I tried to look up male perspective mental health videos to see if i could understand him better or reach him in a new way.
Those two searches alone, unlocked a flood of bullshit into my feed. I couldnt believe the garbage I was bombarded with.
It is akin to how women are pummeled with beauty ads and standards (buy this to be pretty!) since we are young.
They figured out how to market this same insecurity to men. Wild stuff
Edit: except they aren’t just selling “self care” like they do to us, they’re selling hate-
There are people at my work place that I thought that I got along with and then all of a sudden they come out with the most bigoted things that I have ever heard. I straight up do not trust any man my age at this point there are just too many of them that are “hiding their powerlevel”
Yeah, I was enjoying some videos about dumb Steven Seagal movies, but then I realized that every single one would have jokes about women being bad drivers, being overly emotional, etc. At first I took it as a humorous way to look at Seagal’s misogyny, but then it became apparent that it was being applied in other cases where it didn’t make sense. It was subtle, in the context of the rest of the videos, but a definitely present part was the manosphere mentality.
