• PugJesus@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    6
    ·
    15 hours ago

    Sabotaging dual-use communications devices that are used, specifically, by members of an enemy paramilitary group is not a clear-cut war crime. On the other hand, there is a very strong argument that ‘blind-firing’ such devices en-masse without regard for the proximity of civilians or possibility of civilian harm is a war crime via insufficiently discerning use of force. But even that is something that could probably be argued in a legitimately-unbiased international court - not that it’ll ever fucking get to one, considering Israel’s history with international courts.

    Either way, it’s a shite move that was only meant to escalate the situation so Bibi can stay in power a few more minutes. Vile shit.

    • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      8 hours ago

      “stress that booby-traps associated with objects in normal civilian daily use are prohibited, and that booby-traps must not be used in association with protected persons, protected objects (such as medical supplies, gravesites and cultural or religious property) or internationally recognized protective emblems or signs (such as the red cross and red crescent).[3] Several manuals further specify that booby-traps must not be used in connection with certain objects likely to attract civilians, such as children’s toys.”

      A cell phone is a normal civil daily use item and would attract use by civilians.

      This specifically would come from Rule 80, pertaining to booby traps. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule80

      • PugJesus@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        7 hours ago
        1. “Booby-trap” means any device or material which is designed, constructed or adapted to kill or injure and which functions unexpectedly when a person disturbs or approaches an apparently harmless object or performs an apparently safe act.

        As these were remotely detonated, they do not fit the definition of a booby trap. Rather, the issue becomes a war crime because of Israel’s choice to detonate, which was very likely done in a manner that was reckless and without regard for collateral damage.

        • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          6 hours ago

          So would you classify them as an improvised explosive device instead? That the department of homeland security says are used by “criminals, vandals, terrorists, suicide bombers, and insurgents”

          That wouldn’t be a good look either

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            6 hours ago

            Didn’t say it was a good look. In fact, I quite explicitly noted that it was a shit move and likely a war crime. Just probably not because of international law on booby traps, but because of international law on discriminate use of force.

        • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          6 hours ago

          I think you’re splitting hairs.

          The intent of the inclusion of boobytraps within that definition is pretty clear. Ordinary objects, when used as the vector for unexpected explosive discharge, become something distrustful and fearsome. How does one know if a device they are purchasing or picking up is one that’s been modified to explode during normal usage?

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            6 hours ago

            I think you’re splitting hairs.

            I think you’re looking for excuses. Fuck’s sake, splitting hairs? That’s quite literally the legal fucking definition.

            Ordinary objects, when used as the vector for unexpected explosive discharge, become something distrustful and fearsome.

            You’re right, that’s also why maskirovka is illegal. If you disguise a tank as a house, what comes next?

            /s

            Also why anti-tank landmines are illegal. If you disguise an explosive under a road, what other dastardly things can you do?

            /s

            • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              5 hours ago

              No, the distinction being made between article 4 and 5 is intended to separate intentionally and mindfully placed mines on military objectives where the risk of civilian injury is low and explosives that are ‘remotely sent’ where the locations must be accurately recorded to prevent accidental discharge after the conflict has ceased.

              I see no way to argue that they can ensure the pagers or radios were placed on such ‘military targets’, nor can they account or record the locations of any that failed to discharge. For all the Lebanese know, there are pagers or radios still in circulation that did not explode on the day of the attack, or that there are more explosives in other mobile devices that have yet to be activated, or were abandoned for use for whatever reason and may go off unexpectedly in the future. It is exactly that uncertainty and the use of everyday objects that makes this terror attack a war crime - not that it matters to a body that has been completely neutered and is incapable of holding Israel accountable without the consent of the US.

              Hiding behind the verbiage of the UN charter is cowardly.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                5 hours ago

                No, the distinction being made between article 4 and 5 is intended to separate intentionally and mindfully placed mines

                Landmines are addressed entirely separately, but thanks for confirming you don’t have the first clue you’re talking about.

                Hiding behind the verbiage of the UN charter is cowardly.

                “How dare you quote the law when talking about the law”

                Sorry, your feelings on the matter override international law, I know.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          3 hours ago

          or approaches an apparently harmless object or performs an apparently safe act.

          You’re forgetting a couple or statements there. These were absolutely booby traps and command detonated traps exist.

        • yogurt@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          3 hours ago

          “Other devices” means manually-emplaced munitions and devices including improvised explosive devices designed to kill, injure or damage and which are actuated manually, by remote control or automatically after a lapse of time.

          It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material.

          “Booby traps and other devices” is one legal thing, there’s no legal distinction. Pager bombs are always a war crime regardless of circumstances.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      4 hours ago

      No. The distribution is as indiscriminate as leaving command detonated mines in place. (also a war crime). You cannot ensure those mines only target combatants after you leave. The indiscriminate distribution is a war crime as much as the indiscriminate activation.

    • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      11 hours ago

      Hezbollah isn’t just a paramilitary group, though, it’s an actual political party in Lebanon.

      You’d have to have an extremely narrow understanding of who Hezbollah even is to claim the attack was legitimate

      Not to mention the intentional fear the strike created that now legitimizes Hezbollah’s mandate against Israel. Yea, it was ‘shite’, but it seems pretty well designed to manufacture fear and chaos and to bait Lebanon into a broader conflict.