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Except it’s literally just an economics term referring to positions that can be reasonably learned through on the job training with little or no prior experience.
Stuff like this just muddies and distracts the conversation from the true issue, which is that those jobs deserve a living wage.
And you don’t think the ruling class weaponizes the terminology to prevent wage increases?
Yeah I don’t care if the jobs are literally no skill, that shouldn’t matter when it comes to paying a living wage.
people definitely use it in a derogatory way though
Doesn’t matter if it’s “skilled” or not, you’re still paying someone to do something for you. And if it was trivial, you wouldn’t be paying them.
At a restaurant I’m paying the chef and waiters for making me food, no matter what the quality, or if I could make better or not – because I didn’t want to cook, and they did it for me.
That alone is worth paying someone and thanking them.
If only that cost could somehow be included in the price of the food and not reliant upon a voluntary donation from the customer as a % of the bill.
I agree with that, tips are bad for everything except management (in case they can use tips to pay less and look cheaper) and tax evasion I guess
Otherwise they’re highly discriminatory and a bad customer experience
The expected tip should be included within the price so the workers are paid fairly by default. Tipping can still exist to show appreciation, but it needs to have a maximum. $1-2 per individual, or $5 combined. They should be extra in every sense of the word. I make sure to tip at least $0.50-$1.00 for perhaps a $2.50 drink at a local coffee shop because I absolutely love that place. I’m tipping to reflect that they’re my favorite. That’s what it should be like.
It’s not a matter of the work being trivial or not. You’re mainly paying for someone’s time. The labor itself is extra on top of that. We need to work to put food on the table and have clothing/shelter. If you’re spending your time doing work for someone else, then you can’t spend that time on necessities, which means your employer has to provide it through your pay.
OK, but why do you think you’re paying teenagers to work in McDonalds and not courting the best neuro-surgeons and rocket scientists?
What is it about their relative skillsets?
OK, but why do you think you’re paying teenagers to work in McDonalds and not courting the best neuro-surgeons and rocket scientists?
… Because I’m not doing anything related to neurology or rocketry?
Yeah. Time is money.
Eh there’s a difference between a job that can be accomplished with on the job training and the right soft skills, vs a job that requires a degree or apprenticeship or something similar
Ultimately it depends on liability and how replaceable you are if your employment terminates. Not that that mindset is a good thing, it’s still exploitation, but that’s the thought behind it.
Masonry and farming can be complex tasks requiring substantial training too.
Same with a bartender. In many places you need to get specific training for serving, so you don’t over serve, and know when to cut people off. On top of that, there’s a long list of drinks and cocktails that you’re expected to be able to put together at a moment’s notice. It’s far from unskilled IMO.
I mean, if you’re just pouring beer from a tap to a glass and not much more, maybe? As soon as you need to mix, it’s much more involved.
Don’t get me started on bricklayers/stone masons; definitely not unskilled.
Most of these jobs are benefited by skills. Even a cook or dishwasher, having prior cooking experience or training, even if you’re working at a fast food place, having food safety and good kitchen habits and etiquette, so you don’t walk into someone standing at the fryer or something - it’s still a learned skill.
IMO, the “unskilled labor” title is not accurate, it implies anyone of any skill level (including zero skills), can do the job, which is completely incorrect. There’s no way. What it should be, and what it means in my mind is that this is labor with no specific prior knowledge required, which is any task you can learn on the go. If you can show up, never having done the job before, and learn as you go and be not garbage at doing it before the end of the day, then it’s a job that doesn’t require specialized skills or training to get. It should be marketed in job ads, more like “on the job training” and that the job does not require any college/university, or prior experience.
Anything referred to as “unskilled” is always going to be wrong in my mind.
To deny the existence of unskilled labor is pure delusion and it alienates people who haven’t drank the koolaid. Instead argue that unskilled labor must still be compensated with at least enough money to be financially secure, same as all full time employment, regardless of what it is.
If you work full time, you shouldn’t need to worry about money. That’s it. Don’t say more.
Dude. Yes. I was trying to think of a way to say it, but you nailed it.
No matter what you do, as long as you’re contributing something (if you’re able), you should be able to make a living and not worry about food and shelter and healthcare and the ability to learn new information.
If you go out of your way to learn a difficult skill that requires years of work and training(engineering, medicine, agriculture, etc) then what you do is absolutely skilled labor.
That’s the entire point of the post.
all labor requires skill, which is why I reject the term “unskilled”. In a world in which the value of a person is determined by the value of their labor, calling a job “unskilled” carries the implication that people that are only capable of that labor are worth less. However, that’s secondary to the point this post is trying to make and you clearly recognized: everyone deserves a living wage.
I mean… I get what you’re trying to say, but I think your passion is misplaced. It’s a nice thought, of course everyone wants to feel valued for their labor.
Certain labor is worth more than others. And some labor does not require any skills. These are facts. Picking something up and moving it over there does not require any skills unless you want to get silly and say that basic human coordination is a skill. There are jobs out there for simple manual labor like this.
Everyone that works full time deserves a living wage. Funnel your passion into that point, not the one that is objectively incorrect and will sway people away from your main and very valid point.
Can you stand in one spot for twelve hours straight? Can you do it 4 days in a row? I doubt it.
some labor is worth more than others
Duh
some labor does not require any skills
Wrong.
picking something up and moving it doesn’t
Yes it does. Proper lifting technique, the muscles to lift whatever it is, coordination and balance to not drop that shit, likely math skills would be involved in such a job, likely written language skills as well.
Just because you can’t think of the skills it requires immediately doesn’t meant there isnt skill being used
All labor is skilled in some way, thus all labor should be paid fairly.
I’ve always found it ridiculous how farmers are considered unskilled. Like just anyone can balance on a moving trailer while throwing hay bailes around. It’s just soo easy to take a tractor apart and back together again because a gasket blew. It’s so easy to have a biggillion different skills varying from field to field. Literally everyone I know can run a mile while carrying a sailt lick. Farmers are just dumb and untalented. Am I right. /S
Since when is farming considered unskilled?
Quite often in films and books farmers are often depicted as dumb guy with funny twang accent. Also farmers are also depicted in the picture above. Yea it’s trying to say all labor is skilled labor but hey OP felt the need to include farmers in the picture.
In the past there probably was more manual labor that couldn’t be automated, so there were many jobs in farming that would be considered unskilled. I would guess that there are many fewer jobs like this now.
Not the farm owners. They are usually the capitalists.
But “everyone” picking manually asparagus or strawberry or wine grapes is usually from a low income country or an illegal work, working for pennies.
varying from field to field
I see what you did there – intentionally or not!
Are you confusing farmers with farm labourers? One runs a highly specialist business, one just needs to pick strawberries.
Picking strawberries is hard when your back, feet scream for pain every time.
…and yet, (almost) everyone has a back and a pair of feet. Hence, unskilled. Doesn’t matter much if it’s Elon Musk, my next door neighbor or some teen from Thailand picking strawberries. The value of their input labour will be the same in this context.
From essential workers to unskilled labor in one year!
Why can’t it be both? Just because the work you do can be done by anyone with minimal training, doesn’t mean it can’t be necessary work for society to function properly.
Because if they really were essential, they wouldn’t be paid slave wages.
While I generally agree, there are definitely jobs that are easier to learn and generally are doable by anyone.
Like executives.
That statement is delusional
Can you describe exactly what skills executives have that nobody else does?
No, because you’re arguing in bad faith. They said “anyone can do it” which is obvious bullshit as there are enough companies run into the ground by incompetent CEOs. I never said nobody else that is not currently a CEO could do it which is the strawman that you are implying.
which is obvious bullshit as there are enough companies run into the ground by incompetent CEOs.
That’s the point. Running companies into the ground is obviously acceptable for executives or it wouldnt be so common and they’d be getting blackballed. Instead they get golden parachutes.
Clearly destroying companies is acceptable as an executive, and anyone can destroy a company.
Bro just go read about any one that did it and wasn’t qualified. They are in jail/ will never find another job in the area.
Google " failed execs"
Not OP, but I’ll give you a fair shot.
The summary is no, there is no ‘exact’ skillset specific to executives, as there are many types. There are however skills and traits that many have in common that are useful.
I’ll split them into three vague groups.- “politicians”, managers and industry experts.
The first category are social power players more than anything getting into their position due to connections and charisma. Their importance is playing the loyalties of other people - widely considered the most useless execs, even in business circles. If they’d be categorized by “skillset”, it’d be people skills (leadership) and connections to important people.
Managers are usually focused on economy and the running of an organization. They’ll often have both experience and academic knowledge of organizational structures, asset management and economics, helping their organization (at least on paper) make the most of their resources. They can be good at their job, but if they get too focused on the “on paper” economics they fall into the category of “greedy, money grabbing fucks who ruin everything they touch”.
The last and (in my mind) best category are the industry experts. Often they’ll have come from within a company or organization and have in-depth knowledge of how things work and what is “important” in a business. These sorts are the “boring” ones we don’t hear much about, often having started their a business and grown it, or come from within and sat in leadership for decades. On the flipside they’ll have opinions without any obvious basis, “This is just how it is done”, which is in many cases important, but in others pure BS.
In all three categories you’ll find execs who are good and bad in different ways.
Are you a sociopath? If no, then you’re not qualified.
Exactly!
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Or pilots, or surgeons. I mean anyone could have a decent attempt at doing ANY job
yeah, at least once :D
Those jobs have qualifications and training requirements.
Oh sorry, I thought we were ignoring obvious real world requirements
As the CEO (on paper) of a company, who also takes a $1 salary. Yeah. I don’t do shit. The employees do everything.
edit: People downvoting because they think CEOs should be paid their stupid money - fuck off. Money should go to those doing the labor. Executive salaries create poverty wages, lowering executive salaries and paying those doing legitimate work means better wages.
You literally are not doing any labor, and are not getting paid. Is that supposed to be a gotcha?
No…it was agreeing to the fact that CEOs shouldn’t be paid ridiculous amounts. Since I don’t do the labor, I don’t take pay, and that’s how it should be.
I fail to see how that is a gotcha? Do people here actually think CEOs should be paid for that? If so, I maintain my stance, they shouldn’t.
But is it a job anyone would want to do?
Unskilled usually means no experience required.
I think we should just say the latter.
Regardless of what we call it, it still should be paid a living wage.
🎩’s off to that!
And you don’t think solving that equation from the other end should be what happens? Just pay people more ad nauseum while the cost of living continually skyrockets?
So my 16yo son wants a summer job. He should be able to stock shelves 40 hrs/wk for $1000/wk (the living wage in my metropolitan area)?
Not allowing there to be entry level jobs that pay below the cost of living prevents youth (and others in certain situations) from being able to enter the market, thereby reducing their skill weekend they do enter later, which easily leads to involuntary unemployment. It actually creates the situation that’s attempting to be solved. The higher the cost to businesses for these entry level jobs, the fewer employed in them, and thus the higher the unemployment.
So during not-summer who is stocking shelves? My guess to your answer is that high schoolers will, but then who will work fast food restaurants during school hours?
Too many jobs are considered “entry level”. If people used them as stepping stone jobs, the companies would cease to function properly.
For example my father thinks that all fast food positions except Manager are entry level. But I can guarantee you he’d be pissed if only the manager was working in the mornings when he wants coffee.
It’s not even no experience required, it’s usually “can learn on the job”…
In theory you could learn any job “on the job”, it’s just that some jobs would take a lot more of the existing employees time to teach.
Also, if “time to learn” = more pay, then astrophysicts and philosophers would be some of the richest mofos out there.
In my experience many jobs don’t have existing employees to teach anyone, you are the only person who does that job, so if you don’t know how to do something you need to be able to figure it out/learn it on your own.
The cross-industry term for “no experience required” is “entry level”, not unskilled.
I don’t think that there’s such a thing as unskilled jobs, because no company would ever advertise that they are seeking “unskilled” laborers. Even jobs like flipping burgers at McDonalds are treated with a certain degree of seriousness and professional reverence by the company themselves. They want to hire people who are quick on their feet, are familiar with how to cook, can memorize orders including substitutions, multitask in the kitchen, and so on. Those are undeniably skills that one must train, either independently or on the job itself.
Unskilled labor is entirely a fictitious term invented by the media to describe jobs that they deem unimportant or trivial, with the sole purpose of denigrating the demographic of people who work those jobs as a primary means to earn a living.
The cross-industry term for “no experience required” is “entry level”, not unskilled.
Not true. For example, “entry-level” Python programming jobs will expect you to have experience with the Python programming language.
They will not teach you Python programming skills, let alone programming skills in general, on-site.
You’re conflating with “no occupation experience” with “no prior experience.”
“Experience” is generally defined as prior work history in the same field, not occupational knowledge. An entry level job necessarily means that you can apply for the job and still have a chance to get hired even if it is your first ever job (or, in a perfect world, that’s what it would mean, yet we live in a world where “entry level” job postings exist that also require 3-5 years of prior work history in the field).
Of course, just because it’s an entry level position, that doesn’t mean that someone who knows nothing about the job they are applying for can get it. That’s why I specified that every job has skills that you need to train either on the job or independently. In the case of python programming, you would absolutely need those skills down pat before applying to the job, because the expectation is that you are sufficiently competent with the language and can start on projects right away.
You can absolutely be trained on the job for a python career. I am Software Developer and was mostly trained on the job before I received the title.
I’m curious. Did you have any prior Python programming experience or any programming experience at all before getting the position?
Not formal. Although I wrote Powershell scripts for the team I was on previously.
In my experience, maybe 20% of your job is based on what you know about the language going in. The rest is learning that particular companies pipelines, practices, and code base. Junior devs are absolutely expected to learn on the job, both about the product and development in general.
Junior devs are expected to learn on the job, but to come in with a solid base level of proficiency.
My internships and first junior position didn’t require me to know the language they used, but they required me to know a similar language and be able to program already. Being able to at least write pseudocode was absolutely required for those interviews.
Unskilled labor is not a media term. It’s actually a classification of worker by the government for EB-3 classification. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-third-preference-eb-3
There is a formal definition of unskilled worker which is performing a role that requires less than 2 years of training or experience.
Entry-level doesn’t mean no experience required, it means no professional experience required.
An entry level engineering job requires an engineering degree but no work experience. That’s literally 4 years of required experience.
An entry level software engineer job requires you to have a CS degree, bootcamp, or equivalent self-taught hobbyist experience. I haven’t heard of any recent entry level software jobs that would accept someone who hasn’t even written a hello world before.
An entry level physician job requires you to have completed a medical residency and medical degree.
Tell this to all the “entry level” positions that wanted 3-5 years of experience. Searching for a CS job with just a degree was terrible.
That’s not to say I disagree with you though. Entry level should be the actual entry point into a field
Yes, we are on the same page. See my other reply to another similar comment below.
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Bull.
The idea of forcing Phony Stark to be a farm laborer for a week is quite hilarious, though - he’d probably die within 24 hours (I did say it would be hilarious, after all).
Jobs that don’t require experience may also need on-site training.
What’s the problem?
Unskilled just means pretty much anyone can do it. McDonald’s, Walmart cashier, warehouse worker, etc.
You don’t need any sort of certification or training. Yes, you need to be “skilled” in that you may need to be physically fit or friendly in social settings, there are definitely plenty of people who are not suited to warehouse work or being a cashier, but if you are suited you can generally start right away with minimal training.
It’s still disingenuous to call it unskilled, though. Even those jobs require rudimentary skills that not everyone has. If we diminish the value of these skills, we’re just devaluing people even further.
What do you want to call it? Just curious, we love to criticize but not offer suggestions
Why try to draw an arbitrary division like that in the first place? There are a lot of “skilled labor” positions that don’t actually require any certification or training. And there are a lot of “unskilled labor” positions that do require training. It kind of just seems like a way to dismiss certain types of labor as “lower” than others, at least that’s how the term is used in a majority of contexts.
Unspecialized is a bit less dismissive of a term
Generalized would be a good contrast to specialized that generally lacks biases.
I got into an argument with someone about this. I ended up proposing generalized versus specialized.
Having to cater to your customers’ every need and socializing, keeping eye contact or regulating emotions are necessary skills for a cashier job, yet a mentally disabled person may not have those skills due to their disability. Do you guys just casually forget autism or personality disorders exist?
Strawman. Unskilled /= low pay. High supply of workers/candidates vs. demand is what makes the pay low.
There are plenty unskilled jobs that are relatively well paid because, for whatever reason, not enough people want to do them. Painter/Decorator for example, how hard is it to paint a wall.
“Hard” as in technical difficulty, effort required, or safety risk? The first is the only qualification of “skilled labor.” However, all of these factors can affect pay.
In my country it is a three years trade apprenticeships and it is shit payed. Also you see the difference between a good and a bad painter very much.
I don’t see a lot of burger flippers standing on a 16 foot ladder
Because… they lack the skills to climb a ladder???
Airline mechanic here. We are considered unskilled labor. Enjoy your next flight.
Absolutely untrue in the US. You need an FAA repairman card or your A&P license both of which allow you access to high paying jobs. The fact that you need the certificate makes this skilled by definition.
I thought the A&P counted as an associates degree
Ah so that’s why my wheel was squeaky /s
“Retarded” used to be the new sensitive word for what they called a “Moron”. He’s not a moron he’s just “Retarded (slowed)”. Now retard is one of the the quickest, cutting insults you can dish out. The word shifted when it got applied to people with metal disabilities.
I guess what I’m saying is, even if we don’t called unskilled labor “unskilled labor”, lets say we call it “duck jobs” eventually the neutral term “duck jobs” will shift when we apply it to shitty jobs that don’t pay well and anyone can do. I used to work a few duck jobs out of school, like loading trucks, but eventually I got back to college and got an internship that lead to a goose job. Now I hope to never do a duck job again.
The point is that those jobs should not be paid badly
It’s not about creating a new word to distinguish it, it’s about eliminating the distinction
Right, cause being a business owner means they have unlimited money for wages. The distinction is meaningful therefore it will always exist.
You should not be running a business if you cannot pay your workers.
Not all jobs SHOULD pay the same. certain jobs require little to no thought, or engagement. It literally takes “NO SKILL” to do. that doesn’t mean you can’t work hard at doing it. Take cleaning for example. cleaning takes no skill. take something that’s dirty, and make it clean. it doesn’t take any skill to run a mop. there’s zero reason that job should pay the same as someone who went through some kind of training, be it trade school, college, classes, etc, to do. If you homogenize what everyone makes, there is no drive to improve yourself.
The word shifted when it got applied to people with metal disabilities.
It’s never NOT meant someone with mental disabilities. Mentally Retarded is/was a medical term. The sensitive retards in the world made it “not politically correct” to do that.
Euphemism treadmill
Skill issue
Okay that made me laugh :D
They assigned us positions with wages. Discussing wages with each other was highly discouraged. Turns out, our wages dictated our inherent worth as people. So we decided that that was a fine way to live. And we woke up during the wee hours of the morning to move boxes and pens and registers and turn cranks. Some of us are able to feed our children and everything is fine.
Unskilled means you don’t need prior skills before being hired. That’s all.
It doesn’t mean someone doesn’t become proficient, or even great at the job while they have it.
As a person with a fucked up back, a strong back is a skill. Don’t tell me ditch diggers and porters don’t have skills.
You can teach a ditch digger the skills to dig a ditch the day you hire them. Hence they are an unskilled hire.
A strong back is an ability.
So what you’re saying is it takes a day to reach someone the skills to be a ditch digger?
So it’s skilled labor?
They’re unskilled when they get hired, skilled after a day of training. Might not be a lot of skill required, but that’s still not 0
The definition relates to the day of hire. The seeking of new employees. Not the state of those employees after x amount of time working.
Some of the boxes here are too simplistic.
Being a mason, a brick layer, is skilled. But to hire a new person to the crew is unskilled. All they do is carry things, and clean up.
Experienced masons take years to develop, and sometimes include professional certification and education. That’s skilled labor.
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But to hire a new person to the crew is unskilled. All they do is carry things, and clean up
Both of which are skilled tasks. Is it as skilled as the bricklayer? No.
Does it take 0 skill at all? No.
Incredibly simple concepts that it’s funny to see people unable to grasp
Literally watching you not read the definition of the word. You are ascribing your own value judgement on the situation.
An UNSKILLED hire is someone you could hire from anywhere, anyone at all. No prior exposure to the task at all. That’s it. That’s all it means.
If you need to hire a bricklayer who can produce at a high level, to exacting standards, and with knowledge of regulations and best practices, you can’t hire just anyone. You need a SKILLED hire, because you need that employee to start at a veteran level from day 1.
It does not matter how you build that employee, what they learn, or how masterful they get after say one. That’s not what the label refers to. Even if they become the best grocery bagger ever, if you could fire them, and could hire a rookie and get passable results on day one, that’s unskilled labor.
Back to the bricklayer, if you hire an unskilled rookie, they start off carrying shit around and cleaning up, but you eventually train them, they then becoming proficient and skilled at bricklaying, great. That employee can now either request skilled pay/a skilled spot on the crew. Or they can go apply to other companies that demand a skilled employee.
That’s it.
Bagging groceries or carrying things is “unskilled” even though a person could get pretty good at doing it.
Seen here:
How easy it is to manipulate idiots that don’t understand subtext.
