I really hated the word tankie when i joined lemmy, it felt like it was thrown around too much, but then i really started seeing “communists” “critically supporting” Russia, despite being a far right shithole, like you only need to see who where the allies of Russia in Europe, weeks before the war started they were meeting with Meloni from Italy, Vox (fascist far right) from Spain and similar parties from other sides of Europe. Some communists are so in love with the idea of the USSR that cant really see that Putin is just your average far right dictator.
Thankfully in Spain you dont see this happening as much as in some lemmy communities.
I’m in a small leftwing party in Portugal whose roots go back to the fight against dictatorship which was mostly done by Communists, and when Russia invaded Ukraine I had to come up with a framing to help some of the older members understand it since they were instinctively siding with Russia (I basically just compared it with the invasion of Iraq by the US and reminded them how they felt about it).
People back 50 or 60 years ago were just indoctrinated into Communism as young people (understandably in a country which was under a Fascist dictatorship which included censorship) and still today in their mind space they have lots of “undeniable truths” which they accepted long ago without any critical thinking and which they never really examined, and specifically in my country were “Communism” was mainly the Soviet Union variant, a lot of those “truths” are about how great Russia is.
Mind you, this being a party other than the local Communist Party, and thus were even the older Communists were people who were not in the actual Communist Party because they disagreed with them (so a thinking kind of Communist rather than mindless tribalists), I did manage to turn around the few who had instinctively sided with Russia. The local Communist Party, even now (after that country turned into basically Fascism) are still pro-Russia.
Well, the funny bit is that those old guys were still flexible enough to change their minds when a suitable framing of the thing was presented to them, by which point they recognized it all as the more generic scenario of “aggressor attacking victim to take their shit” and made their opinions based on what their principles were on that kind of thing.
I would say the problem here was tribalism: they were predisposed to believe, support and excuse the aggressor because they felt, due to long ago experiences and indoctrination that “they’re our people”. Fortunatelly these specific people were open minded and intelligent enough to be able to step out of that and consider the whole thing from a detached point of view.
Plenty of tribalists are pretty much religious fanatics when it comes to all those “acquired truths” and the truthfulness, trustworthiness and wisdom of whatever the tribe’s leaders say.
IMHO, tribalist is by far the greatest problem, though I would agree that it and inflexibility are deeply connected.
Yeah, I mean, over the years, I’ve gone far left enough that I believe that capitalism must be dismantled as it’s incompatible with democracy. I’m not exactly conservative. But good god, some parts of Lemmy would make me out to be a Gilded Age Robber-Baron for calling out Russia as an imperialist fascist state. It’s insane. And exhausting. I hate dealing with it.
Luckily, it’s not nearly as bad as it was back when Grad and Hexbear were still federated.
But good god, some parts of Lemmy would make me out to be a Gilded Age Robber-Baron for calling out Russia as an imperialist fascist state
I’ve been on Lemmy some 8 months I think and I’ve never seen anyone do that. I have seen plenty of Ruski trolls spamming “don’t vote genocide Joe”, but I haven’t really seen anyone pretending to be for the Russian side in the Russo-Ukrainian war.
They’re not communists. If you suggest a communist revolution to them (that is, a revolution resulting in a stateless, classless, moneyless society), they’ll call you an idiot.
Unfortunately Podemos has taken the position of opposing any policy that helps Ukraine in their defense effort, framing an attitude that only leads to maximizing Ukraine’s losses as “anti-war”. At least most people in Sumar haven’t fallen to this fallacy.
Eh, i dont know the point of your comment, but just to clarify, Podemos is not a communist party, altough it is supported by some communists / has some communist in the party. Sumar as a whole is even less to the left than they are, despite having also some parties inside the group that could be considered communists.
Its not true that Podemos is against anything that helps Ukraine, they are all in for a cease fire and for an end to the war through dialogue which should be done from the EU mainly, the same way they are in for a cease fire/end of the war in Gaza, what they are against is spending billions of euros that are needed here to send weapons and war vehicles to Ukraine, the same way they do not support sending weapons and war vehicles to palestine nor no one expects that to be the position of any party here.
If Russia is willing to continue the war as long as they’re making gains (and Russia is making gains as long as they control foreign territory and intend to keep it), refusing to military support Ukraine means supporting a scenario where Russia will have effectively violated their sovereignity, which in turn further incentivizes imperialist countries to attack their neighbours as they’ve just seen they can get away with it.
You can keep gaslighting yourself into thinking that you only need words to convince Putin to leave Ukraine, or for Netanyahu to leave Palestine, or for Jeff Bezos to give up his privileged position in the capitalist hierarchy, but the vast majority of the world will keep their feet in reality and understand that some people are fundamentally selfish and must be forced into no longer committing evil.
Just lol, go fight in the war yourself against Putin and Netanyahu then, also good mental gymnastics making a relation in fighting against nuclear powers that will ensure mutual destruction vs fighting against the capital and billionaries like Bezos lmao.
You might want to reread the whole thread also just in case. See ya.
I really hated the word tankie when i joined lemmy, it felt like it was thrown around too much, but then i really started seeing “communists” “critically supporting” Russia, despite being a far right shithole, like you only need to see who where the allies of Russia in Europe, weeks before the war started they were meeting with Meloni from Italy, Vox (fascist far right) from Spain and similar parties from other sides of Europe. Some communists are so in love with the idea of the USSR that cant really see that Putin is just your average far right dictator.
Thankfully in Spain you dont see this happening as much as in some lemmy communities.
I’m in a small leftwing party in Portugal whose roots go back to the fight against dictatorship which was mostly done by Communists, and when Russia invaded Ukraine I had to come up with a framing to help some of the older members understand it since they were instinctively siding with Russia (I basically just compared it with the invasion of Iraq by the US and reminded them how they felt about it).
People back 50 or 60 years ago were just indoctrinated into Communism as young people (understandably in a country which was under a Fascist dictatorship which included censorship) and still today in their mind space they have lots of “undeniable truths” which they accepted long ago without any critical thinking and which they never really examined, and specifically in my country were “Communism” was mainly the Soviet Union variant, a lot of those “truths” are about how great Russia is.
Mind you, this being a party other than the local Communist Party, and thus were even the older Communists were people who were not in the actual Communist Party because they disagreed with them (so a thinking kind of Communist rather than mindless tribalists), I did manage to turn around the few who had instinctively sided with Russia. The local Communist Party, even now (after that country turned into basically Fascism) are still pro-Russia.
I bet this kind of inflexibility of people is how the world could end.
Well, the funny bit is that those old guys were still flexible enough to change their minds when a suitable framing of the thing was presented to them, by which point they recognized it all as the more generic scenario of “aggressor attacking victim to take their shit” and made their opinions based on what their principles were on that kind of thing.
I would say the problem here was tribalism: they were predisposed to believe, support and excuse the aggressor because they felt, due to long ago experiences and indoctrination that “they’re our people”. Fortunatelly these specific people were open minded and intelligent enough to be able to step out of that and consider the whole thing from a detached point of view.
Plenty of tribalists are pretty much religious fanatics when it comes to all those “acquired truths” and the truthfulness, trustworthiness and wisdom of whatever the tribe’s leaders say.
IMHO, tribalist is by far the greatest problem, though I would agree that it and inflexibility are deeply connected.
Yeah, I mean, over the years, I’ve gone far left enough that I believe that capitalism must be dismantled as it’s incompatible with democracy. I’m not exactly conservative. But good god, some parts of Lemmy would make me out to be a Gilded Age Robber-Baron for calling out Russia as an imperialist fascist state. It’s insane. And exhausting. I hate dealing with it.
Luckily, it’s not nearly as bad as it was back when Grad and Hexbear were still federated.
I’ve been on Lemmy some 8 months I think and I’ve never seen anyone do that. I have seen plenty of Ruski trolls spamming “don’t vote genocide Joe”, but I haven’t really seen anyone pretending to be for the Russian side in the Russo-Ukrainian war.
Maybe your instance defederated with them already.
Oh they’re still around. I have about a dozen tagged. But lately with calling them out they’ve crawled back to mainly posting in .ml instance posts.
I mistakingly thought tankies were kind of phoning it in, like they don’t really believe this nonsense they’re just bored right? Woof
When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
They’re not communists. If you suggest a communist revolution to them (that is, a revolution resulting in a stateless, classless, moneyless society), they’ll call you an idiot.
No one in either of those instances have any place calling anyone an idiot.
Unfortunately Podemos has taken the position of opposing any policy that helps Ukraine in their defense effort, framing an attitude that only leads to maximizing Ukraine’s losses as “anti-war”. At least most people in Sumar haven’t fallen to this fallacy.
Eh, i dont know the point of your comment, but just to clarify, Podemos is not a communist party, altough it is supported by some communists / has some communist in the party. Sumar as a whole is even less to the left than they are, despite having also some parties inside the group that could be considered communists. Its not true that Podemos is against anything that helps Ukraine, they are all in for a cease fire and for an end to the war through dialogue which should be done from the EU mainly, the same way they are in for a cease fire/end of the war in Gaza, what they are against is spending billions of euros that are needed here to send weapons and war vehicles to Ukraine, the same way they do not support sending weapons and war vehicles to palestine nor no one expects that to be the position of any party here.
If Russia is willing to continue the war as long as they’re making gains (and Russia is making gains as long as they control foreign territory and intend to keep it), refusing to military support Ukraine means supporting a scenario where Russia will have effectively violated their sovereignity, which in turn further incentivizes imperialist countries to attack their neighbours as they’ve just seen they can get away with it.
You can keep gaslighting yourself into thinking that you only need words to convince Putin to leave Ukraine, or for Netanyahu to leave Palestine, or for Jeff Bezos to give up his privileged position in the capitalist hierarchy, but the vast majority of the world will keep their feet in reality and understand that some people are fundamentally selfish and must be forced into no longer committing evil.
Just lol, go fight in the war yourself against Putin and Netanyahu then, also good mental gymnastics making a relation in fighting against nuclear powers that will ensure mutual destruction vs fighting against the capital and billionaries like Bezos lmao. You might want to reread the whole thread also just in case. See ya.
There’s no difference between fascism and communism and never was.