What should hermaphrodites do?
Live a happy, fulfilling life? I’m not sure what you mean.
Are they male or female?
Nothing of the science requires any social distinction on the basis of what gametes (if any) an individual produces.
Any such distinction you - or anyone - cares to make about any individual is not based on science.
Yes, i’m left wondering… when does this ever come up? Are biologists complaining about this constantly in peoples minds?
Do you agree with the basic scientific consensus, that sex is binary and immutable?
There is no such consensus. Scientifically, “sex” is so much more complicated. Hormones, hormone receptors, gonads, genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, and reproductive gametes, to name just a few of the components of biological sex.
People who are biologically known to be inter-sex (never mind anything about gender or identity) outnumber those with natural red hair.
But all of this is relatively unimportant. Only a doctor would ever need to know most of these things about a person, and only a doctor or a potential sexual partner would need to know the others. There’s no circumstance in which anyone else needs to know any of these details about a person in order to decide how their interactions with that person should go. Especially not anyone who doesn’t have a close personal relationship with the person. Gender is how someone expresses themselves in society, and that’s the only thing that matters in most circumstances.
Do you know what gametes I produce, if any? Do you need to know what gametes I might produce in order to conduct this conversation?
I think I’m managing to convey my meaning to you, and receiving your meaning in return, without knowledge of what’s happening in your abdomen/pelvis.
Whatever concern you have about the terms “sex”, “binary”, and “immutable”, it isn’t scientific.
Biology isn’t even relevant here, we’ve surpassed evolution, there is absolutely no reason why someone shouldn’t change their gender if they want to. Apart from that, I find it hilarious how confident conservatives are about this, the situation isn’t that simple, there are a number of naturally present aneuploidies including the sex chromosomes. Even in the usual XX and XY variants, parts of the Y chromosome are homologous to X and the expression of sex-specific genes is modulated by epigenetic factors. In practice the concentrations of the sex hormones are not on/off and can vary fluidly. With these simplifications, you are just displaying your ignorance of biology.
Those are all variations within a sex. You’re confusing sex with the phenotype and genotype.
Anyone can change their gender because it’s all made up. Nobody can change the type of gametes they do or would produce.
Unfortunately, this definition of sex is muddled and incoherent. Making gametes just one of many characteristics defining sex may free us from a politically unpopular binary, but at the cost of our ability to describe reality correctly and clearly.
Lemmy needs to drop the gender woo. It’s unscientific and makes you no better than godbotherers that you sneer at
Gender is not a scientific concept, sex is. Gender is a cultural construct.
this entire thing is a strawman on your part. Nobody in the academic world is getting confused by this.
From the opening sentence of the article:
In a new piece for Scientific American, Princeton anthropologist Dr. Agustín Fuentes argues that the binary of male and female is too simplistic to describe the complexity of human sex
Academia has become gripped by a new religious dogma that must not be questioned. They’re trying to redefine the basic scientific terminology of sex in order to appease an unscientific political movement.
Academia has become gripped by a new religious dogma that must not be questioned. They’re trying to redefine the basic scientific terminology of sex in order to appease an unscientific political movement.
Nobody is doing this senselessly. This is a fantasy. Gender and sex are two different things, and sex is legitimately scientifically a spectrum, hermaphrodytes and intersex people actually exist…
There’s no real problem here, just bigots being upset about things that legitimately don’t matter. The world is complex and simplifying it so that you can understand it easier is not a logical way forward.
This is akin to being upset that Pluto isn’t a planet anymore—just because science updates its understanding with new evidence doesn’t mean it’s “catering” to anyone. It means it’s doing its job. If your worldview crumbles because nature isn’t neat and binary, that’s your personal fragility, not a scientific crisis.
No sex is not a spectrum. It’s male or female.
As stated by https://interactadvocates.org/
No, intersex is not a third sex in the traditional sense of male or female. It’s an umbrella term for people born with sex characteristics that don’t fit typical definitions of male or female. Intersex individuals can have any gender identity and sexual orientation, and many identify as either male or female
Go look at any biology book at the college level and you won’t find sex is a spectrum. That’s a fringe theory that ignores human biology.
No sex is not a spectrum. It’s male or female.
This is a matter of opinion, not an objective fact.
No, intersex is not a third sex in the traditional sense of male or female. It’s an umbrella term for people born with sex characteristics that don’t fit typical definitions of male or female.
Yes, which is why it’s a spectrum. They don’t cleanly meet either, they are somewhere inbetween and where exactly they are cannot be cleanly defined. You can try to determine this by size of gametes, etc, but you’ll find complicating factor and exceptions in any definition. Since there’s no clean, clear way to define these things, it is in fact a spectrum.
for example:
You might think this source supports your claim, but notice "Specifically, 58% agreed sex is binary except in rare intersex cases, while 29% said it is not and 13% had no view. "
Intersex individuals can have any gender identity and sexual orientation, and many identify as either male or female
So?
Go look at any biology book at the college level and you won’t find sex is a spectrum. That’s a fringe theory that ignores human biology.
So? They aren’t talking about gender identity, this is a specific guide for a specific course, not representative of all positions by all experts in every field, textbooks are not masters of nuance, they explain things in simple terms to build mastery of a topic, just because a textbook author didn’t want to get into the weeds of this doesn’t mean it isn’t a spectrum and there isn’t complexity and nuance to the topic.
Talk to an expert with a PHD about this, ask them this specific question, you’ll find a better answer than what the textbook says.
We are not talking about gender identify. We are talking biological sex. There are two. That hasn’t and won’t change in our lifetime.
There’s no definite way to classify intersex and non-sexed people that isn’t simply a matter of opinion. This is a fact and won’t change, ever. If you ignore these cases, sure, you’re right, but these cases exist, so the topic is more nuanced than that.
This is a matter of opinion, not an objective fact.
It is an objective fact. I’ll link you to Wikipedia because it’s easy, but feel free to cite anything that contradicts it: “The type of gamete an organism produces determines its sex”
Talk to an expert with a PHD about this
You literally avoided reading the article, where a PhD in evolutionary biology explains exactly why you’re wrong.
It is an objective fact. I’ll link you to Wikipedia[1] because it’s easy, but feel free to cite anything that contradicts it: “The type of gamete an organism produces determines its sex”
Yes, that is a fact, as is the fact that sex is a spectrum because of intersex people. These are not incompatible facts.
You literally avoided reading the article, where a PhD in evolutionary biology explains exactly why you’re wrong.
Plenty of PhD’s in evolutionary biology would agree with me, even in the article
“Sometimes, the complex machinery involved in reproduction can develop wrong, and people can suffer from infertility or exhibit reproductive traits that are atypical for their sex, including ambiguous genitalia (intersex conditions). However, as pointed out by others, these are not additional sexes because these body plans do not produce a new type of gamete besides sperm or eggs. Someone who does not produce any gametes would also not be a third sex since they would be fundamentally incapable of sexual reproduction.”
They make the claim that this doesn’t count as another sex, but even not being any sex would be a sex all on its own… resulting in it not being a simple binary. There’s nuance here that is going over your head.
Intersex people aren’t a monolith. What size gametes each intersex person produces determines their sex. This is the biological definition and is not a spectrum. It is binary and immutable. Gender activists are trying to shove gender into inappropriate places.
If it doesn’t matter, then it should be no big deal to drop all of the gender woo when speaking of sex, right?
Intersex people aren’t a monolith. What size gametes each intersex person produces determines their sex. This is the biological definition and is not a spectrum.
they often produce both or neither…
It is binary and immutable. Gender activists are trying to shove gender into inappropriate places.
Give one example.
If it doesn’t matter, then it should be no big deal to drop all of the gender woo when speaking of sex, right?
It doesn’t matter and it’s a better, more accurate descriptor of the situation, so why would we drop it? That’s like saying we should drop dwarf planets because it doesn’t really matter and you prefer the old way.
There’s a reason science and culture are evolving these terms, it’s because the previous way of using them was simplistic and not as useful.
they often produce both or neither…
Thank you for being aware of the sex binary. In incredibly rare cases (as in you can count them on the fingers of one hand), there may have been cases where humans produced both gametes, likely due to chimerism. But just as you say, it’s both gametes, because sex is binary. They’re producing both of the two binary options.
Producing neither gamete is a silly point to bring up. Your sex is the size of the gametes you do or would produce. It’s also not a new sex to produce neither of the two gametes.
Give one example.
Besides the given example in the article and directly given to you already where an academic is trying to push for a bad definition of sex (in Scientific American, not just some random podunk journal), here’s one example:
Note: in humans, there are egg-producers that do not identify as female and sperm-producers that do not identify as male.
That’s a silly statement that has nothing to do with biology and was clearly shoved in there for appeasement of gender fanatics. Biology doesn’t give a shit how you identify.
more accurate descriptor of the situation
It’s less accurate. You responded to me with “whoa what about intersex people”, because you were working off of a bad and unclear definition. If you had read the article, you would have known this. Reminder that the article is titled “Denying the Human Sex Binary Turns Biology into Nonsense”, written by a PhD in evolutionary biology. He’s addressing your exact points.
Thank you for being aware of the sex binary. In incredibly rare cases (as in you can count them on the fingers of one hand), there may have been cases where humans produced both gametes, likely due to chimerism. But just as you say, it’s both gametes, because sex is binary. They’re producing both of the two binary options.
Yes, or none, which makes it not as simple as a binary. You’ve already admitted even if you disagree about it being a spectrum, that it isn’t a binary. I disagree that the only way to determine the sex of an individual is gamete size, but even if you run with that definition, you end up with exceptions.
Besides the given example in the article and directly given to you already where an academic is trying to push for a bad definition of sex (in Scientific American, not just some random podunk journal), here’s one example[1]:
That link doesn’t even resemble what I asked for, and that example in the article is people expressing legitimate desire to improve the definitions and move the field forward, this is not somebody injecting things for no reason, like you claim. Is discussing the topic not allowed in your eyes? Is literally any discussion or debate on the topic inappropriate?
Producing neither gamete is a silly point to bring up. Your sex is the size of the gametes you do or would produce. It’s also not a new sex to produce neither of the two gametes.
There are many cases where it is impossible to know which you would produce. This means it’s not as simple as a binary, in these cases, the gamete option is not a viable way to determine sex.
It’s less accurate. You responded to me with “whoa what about intersex people”, because you were working off of a bad and unclear definition. If you had read the article, you would have known this. Reminder that the article is titled “Denying the Human Sex Binary Turns Biology into Nonsense”, written by a PhD in evolutionary biology. He’s addressing your exact points.
He failed to address them, none of my points make any of what i’m saying any harder to understand, nor do they cause any actual crisis. The article basically consists of “I don’t like it when people do this, and it’s easier for me to understand even though this doesn’t cover edge cases too well” it’s just an opinion piece, not a factual statement.
biology has plenty of these issues, where the answer seems obvious until you engage with enough literature and ask enough questions, for example, try defining a species for me!
