• Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    You do realize nfts were capable of so much more than pictures but because that was the lowest effort use case that’s what the scammers started with, right?

    Of course not, you just like shitting on things other people designate as safe to shit on

    • Bilb!@lem.monster
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      2 days ago

      I have never heard of one realistic and useful plan for NFTs. And I like to be contrarian whenever possible, since I’m kind of a smug prick. Hit me with 'em!

      • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        At the very basic level NFTs programatically enact contract law in a perfectly transparent way that cannot be faked

        The use cases for this aren’t normally apparent to the average consumer because of habit more than anything. I will give some use cases

        A limited access club can mint NFTs for membership, allowing the holders to personally trade their access in a transparent way and provides an encrypted method functionally equivalent to a One Time Pad (One of the most, if not the MOST secure encryption method in existence) so building access can be transferred instantly between rights holders, as well as providing a secure inherent messaging between members

        This can also be generalized for apartment access. Need a place to stay? You can purchase the tenant NFT from the current renter, and have access to the property securely within seconds

        I use these examples because they are human friendly but the BEST use of NFTs is programatic resource management for automated purchasing systems (which are going to be a FUCKING HUGE THING now that LLMs have got access to the big money), for example:

        Lets say a LLM is tasked with constantly sourcing the cheapest source of tin for industrial processes, and that all the tin producers set lots of raw material as NFTs. (In this case it isn’t an ideal use as the lots are not unique, but the underlying programatic contract execution doesn’t care and treats them as unique) so the LLM calculates shipping and price and automatically buys lots of NFTs to match the need, which ship out from a port halfway around the world that afternoon

        Now 2 days into the 12 day shipping time, the LLM notices that there is a sudden need for tin closer to the current ship location than the initial destination and contacts the LLM of the company that posted the tin need, and offers the lots of NFTs on the ship, the other LLM agrees and the contract is made, the ownership of those lots are altered, the shipping manifest of the cargo vessel is updated and the shipping route may or may not be altered based on the judgment of the LLM handling the cargo ship. All of this happens in a matter of seconds. Once the transaction is complete, the original LLM now goes and searches for another source of tin

        The biggest benefit of NFTs is reducing the friction of complex logistic changes allowing companies to find advantages that pass too quickly for humans to notice or make best use of in a way that can be legally as binding as any other signed contract in a court of law.

        There are other benefits and use cases, some silly and some abstract but NFTs are so much more than a link to an png on a file server somewhere but that’s ALL people like you will ever know them for because scammers ruined the name while real devs were still working on useful products.

        • heraplem@leminal.space
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          2 days ago

          A limited access club can mint NFTs for membership, allowing the holders to personally trade their access in a transparent way and provides an encrypted method functionally equivalent to a One Time Pad (One of the most, if not the MOST secure encryption method in existence) so building access can be transferred instantly between rights holders, as well as providing a secure inherent messaging between members

          You can do this with a database.

          This can also be generalized for apartment access. Need a place to stay? You can purchase the tenant NFT from the current renter, and have access to the property securely within seconds

          You can do this with a PIN code.

          Lets say a LLM is tasked with constantly sourcing the cheapest source of tin for industrial processes, and that all the tin producers set lots of raw material as NFTs. (In this case it isn’t an ideal use as the lots are not unique, but the underlying programatic contract execution doesn’t care and treats them as unique) so the LLM calculates shipping and price and automatically buys lots of NFTs to match the need, which ship out from a port halfway around the world that afternoon

          Now 2 days into the 12 day shipping time, the LLM notices that there is a sudden need for tin closer to the current ship location than the initial destination and contacts the LLM of the company that posted the tin need, and offers the lots of NFTs on the ship, the other LLM agrees and the contract is made, the ownership of those lots are altered, the shipping manifest of the cargo vessel is updated and the shipping route may or may not be altered based on the judgment of the LLM handling the cargo ship. All of this happens in a matter of seconds. Once the transaction is complete, the original LLM now goes and searches for another source of tin

          You can do this with databases.

          The biggest benefit of NFTs is reducing the friction of complex logistic changes allowing companies to find advantages that pass too quickly for humans to notice or make best use of in a way that can be legally as binding as any other signed contract in a court of law.

          In any situation where you might be tempted to call an NFT “legally binding”, it’s not the NFT that’s binding, it’s a contract, and the NFT is just a proxy for the contract. The NFT adds no value.

          • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            You can do this with databases.

            Blockchain is a database. One that everyone automatically can access. The advantage is that you don’t need an admin console. There is no complex on-board and control of users.

          • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            You can do this with a database.

            Yes because blockchain is a database. What it brings that other databases CANNOT is 1) Unfalsifiability baked in to the product at a fundamental level and 2) A universal framework for enacting contracts that are secure enough to use in court as a legally binding document (adobe paid and passed on to the customer a ridiculous cost to make their product compliant with this, for blockchain it is already baked in

            You can do this with a PIN code.

            A horse will take you to the grocery store too, but the NFT of the apartment also comes with the legal documents that show you are the valid resident unlike just a pin code. This also protects the customer from brokers and services from using illegal subletting as you can only get the ‘pin’ from the last valid owner, and that access can be traced back to the initial moment the property entered the blockchain. Also in court, discovery is stupidly easy as all transactions are public and secure

            You can do this with databases.

            Yes and every company has their own database system and almost NONE of them talk to each other and none of them are public ledgers and absolutely none of them operate on consensus polling, meaning trust needs to be established directly, custom APIs need to be crafted for every paired trade instance. Nearly every blockchain comes with that baked in, and has been actively tested and attacked for a decade and a half with zero failure of the underlying blockchain technology.

            it’s not the NFT that’s binding, it’s a contract, and the NFT is just a proxy for the contract. The NFT adds no value.

            The NFT IS a contract, this is what you are missing, and the value it adds is immense which I have demonstrated thoroughly in counter to every weakass claim you have made and you still adamantly refuse to admit your failures

            You are so welded to your meme identity it blinds you to a useful and functional thing

        • Bilb!@lem.monster
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          2 days ago

          I’m just not sure what utility this has for a traveler. You don’t need NFTs to implement transferrable plane tickets, though this does seem to try to ensure that the airline(?) gets a cut of any sales between passengers. It’s the same pattern every time with NFTs, the only thing they seem to do is complicate matters while attempting to make a market out of thin air and take a cut of any related transactions.

          No major US airline allows passengers to transfer tickets, and I don’t think it’s because they lack the technology to do so and NFTs would fill the void. If they did do this and it was possible to buy and sell plane tickets on an open blockchain based market, couldn’t one just buy all of the tickets for popular flights and sell them at a markup?

          • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            No major US airline allows passengers to transfer tickets

            This is because US airlines are legally allowed to sell more seats than they have on a flight. Talk about overcomplication.

            couldn’t one just buy all of the tickets for popular flights and sell them at a markup?

            One could, but there would be a risk of not being able to sell them. Airlines would be taking a cut so they don’t mind, and they sell all their seats.

          • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            You know a guy who first saw the new fangled automobiles once said ‘That’s all well and good, but where do you attach the horse?’

            You don’t NEED the internet, or digital transactions, or credit cards, or any of the other dozens of technological advancements in wealth management that have come about since the 50s either but they exist and make everyone’s lives easier

            Tickets as NFTs are a great idea because it absolutely prevents overbooking. Did you ever even consider that? Can’t mint more NFTs than the plane has seats

            • Bilb!@lem.monster
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              2 days ago

              You know a guy who first saw the new fangled automobiles once said ‘That’s all well and good, but where do you attach the horse?’

              Sure, but this is not a positive argument for your position. This does not mean that everything with doubters is, in fact, good and misunderstood.

              Tickets as NFTs are a great idea because it absolutely prevents overbooking. Did you ever even consider that? Can’t mint more NFTs than the plane has seats

              You can prevent overbooking without blockchain/NFTs. Airlines overbook because they want to, and presumably they would still want to do so if they adopted NFT tickets. There is nothing about using blockchain that would prevent this, they would just mint more NFTs than there are seats for each flight with the hope/expectation that a few ticket holders would not show up.

              • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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                2 days ago

                Sure, but this is not a positive argument for your position.

                So now you’re just going to discount the time I spent setting you up several use cases?

                You can prevent overbooking without blockchain/NFTs. Airlines overbook because they want to,

                And the reason for their overbooking, maximum profit, would be achieved seamlessly with a blockchain based ticketing system as there is no human input lag that causes double booking

                You keep arguing that there are other ways of doing the things that the programatic nature of NFT contracts offer but NONE of them provide it all in one ridiculously transparent, unfalsifiable open source way that can be literally implemented on every platform

                That’s why I used the car and the horse example, you are the one saying: “Yes we already have horses already, why do we need a car? And how would a horse even USE a car you silly billy?”

                The really sad thing is I’m waiting for a moment of realization from you that it is blatantly clear you are incapable of achieving. Pretending to be open minded is intellectually dishonest

                • Bilb!@lem.monster
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                  2 days ago

                  So now you’re just going to discount the time I spent setting you up several use cases?

                  I didn’t thoughtlessly discount anything, I’m just saying that while “some people didn’t see how cars could be useful” is true, it does not mean that everything that has doubters is actually a misunderstood wonder. Plenty of things with fervent true believers that have been supposed to change everything were, in fact, duds.

                  And the reason for their overbooking, maximum profit, would be achieved seamlessly with a blockchain based ticketing system as there is no human input lag that causes double booking

                  Human input lag is not generally the cause of overbooking. The overbooking is intentional. NFTs have no unique ability to prevent it. This is not a tech problem, and so it cannot be solved by tech. I’m open to the possibility that airline tickets are just a bad example, of course, and it wasn’t even an example you presented.

                  You keep arguing that there are other ways of doing the things that the programatic nature of NFT contracts offer but NONE of them provide it all in one ridiculously transparent, unfalsifiable open source way that can be literally implemented on every platform

                  This is all rather vague. The benefits are not obvious, so you need to be more specific.

                  That’s why I used the car and the horse example, you are the one saying: “Yes we already have horses already, why do we need a car? And how would a horse even USE a car you silly billy?”

                  You might be the one who is saying “the hyperloop will change travel forever!” Everything you’re writing seems like vague motivated reasoning presupposing that NFTs are the solution to problems that you don’t even seem to understand.

                  The really sad thing is I’m waiting for a moment of realization from you that it is blatantly clear you are incapable of achieving. Pretending to be open minded is intellectually dishonest

                  😏

                  • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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                    2 days ago

                    So an airline wants to sell every single possible seat on every plane, but not have too many people on the plane on takeoff because buying off those customers costs money, but plenty of customers cancel last minute so it is inefficient to only hand out just as many tickets as seats. The number is arrived at by sophisticated behavior algorithms that aren’t very accurate, but are more accurate than current human estimations

                    There are also 3rd party sellers that receive segments of ticket and can and do act as brokerages in a grey market that if the idiots in washington understood would be a lot more heavily regulated

                    What NFTs bring to the game: New classes of tickets: Quantum Tickets. They’re not really tickets till you board.

                    So you have normal seating for the existing classes, 1st to coach that are NFT guaranteed and once you have your ticket you KNOW you will be getting that seat. You can also transfer ownership of this ticket yourself for any reason, automatically and seamlessly through the app

                    Now we have a pool of quantum travelers that for the savings of a bit on the price, enter a randomized allocation of the remaining unused tickets, late cancellations, and other non-check ins.

                    ALL seamless, all on the app. From the outside it looks like any other boarding situation but now we have a very good chance every single sold seat will be taken.

                    Can’t do that with existing systems, the methods of transfer are platform locked and even ones that offer API refuse to play with other services.

                    NFTs make a universal contract language that any business can use to transfer assets automatically and programattically in such a way that CANNOT be falsified

                    There is literally no other open source, cross platform solution that even comes close to offering 30% of this

            • pyre@lemmy.world
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              2 days ago

              interesting, around here we do it with numbered seats. if you give each seat a specific number turns out you can match that with numbered tickets. somehow airlines don’t make tickets with numbers that don’t match with any seats. insane tech.

                • pyre@lemmy.world
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                  2 days ago

                  way to miss the point. literally everyone knows that they overbook. that’s not because they’re not using nfts. it’s because they want to overbook. you said nfts would prevent overbooking. I say you can just prevent overbooking by not overbooking. it has nothing to do with nfts.

                  • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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                    1 day ago

                    actually having to pay off extra passengers can get expensive, up to 10k per seat, so even one willing passenger without a seat is a loss, but they accept that possibility based on a curve over time of profit across all flights calculated on historical outcomes. Some flights will be overbooked and they accept that as the cost of making sure that other flights are more filled

                    The reason they overbook is that there is no human way to seamlessly transfer ticket ownership between pass holders down to the moment of boarding, across all venues and services where the tickets are sold.

                    NFTs add a platform that is universal, secure, and publicly accessible. No other database offers that

            • pjwestin@lemmy.world
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              1 day ago

              Yeah, but if your only example of NFTs being useful is that one of the worst airlines in the industry adopted them, that’s not a great argument. “Shitty company uses system, so system must be useful,” doesn’t really track.

              • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                Someone has to go first. A low cost airline adopted them to avoid the hassles and inefficiencies of overbooking flights.

                There are also lots of B2B uses of NFTs, mainly around supply chain and energy tracking, but I thought a B2C example would resonate better here.

                • pjwestin@lemmy.world
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                  1 day ago

                  Well, first, I’m very skeptical of the NFTs’ ability to resolve overbooking. Overbooking is a choice airlines make to maximize profits. We could force airlines to stop overbooking tomorrow if we wanted, and they could try to prevent losses by making tickets non-refundable or charging extra for refundable tickets (tactics they already use in addition to overbooking). It seems to me the main problem is that capitalism motivates airlines to maximize profits instead of transporting people to their destination. The obvious solution to me is to nationalize the airlines, not create a third-party aftermarket for airline tickets.

                  Also, the article you shared actually makes no mention of overbooking. I have to assume the solution being suggested by NFT tickets is something along the lines of, “We sell only the amount of tickets on the flight, and while we won’t refund your ticket, if you can’t make your flight, you’re free to sell your ticket to whoever you like.”

                  Seems like a decent enough idea, except that you need to go through the third-party NFT company to sell your ticket, you may lose value on your ticket or even not find a buyer, and you still need to make any changes to your ticket 72 hours in advance, meaning it would be useless in resolving no-shows from flight delays. You also wind up paying a transaction fee to the NFT company and the airline for any changes you make, so really it seems what’s being suggested here is that, instead of being able to get a refund on your ticket, you do the job of selling your own ticket on the free-market, and both the ticket company and airline profit from your labor. And again, since this article makes no mention of overbooking, I have to assume Flybondi will continue that practice anyway.

                  I also have to point out that this article was written by and unnamed, “crypto believer,” and self-published in Medium by an NFT company. It’s not exactly a great source.

                  All that being said, I’m sure there are uses for NFTs, just like their are uses for generative AI and VR. My point isn’t that they’re useless, just that their uses are overstated and create a financial bubble. I can see how generative AI might be useful first-draft copywriting, but it’s not capable of replacing a writers room, or even giving accurate search results. VR is great for gaming, but no matter how much money Zuckerberg threw at it, it couldn’t do anything for meetings that Zoom didn’t do better. I’m not sure what the B2B uses of NFTs are, but I believe you when you tell me they exist; they just couldn’t create value for random JPEGs. The NFT collapse bankrupted a bunch of crypto-bros, Zuckerberg’s VR investment cost Facebook $60 billion, and the generative AI bubble is going to hit every single tech company and the stock market as a whole.

                  • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                    24 hours ago

                    Overbooking is a choice airlines make to maximize profits. It seems to me the main problem is that capitalism motivates airlines to maximize profits instead of transporting people to their destination.

                    Agreed. That’s why it can only start with low cost airlines outside the US.

                    Also, the article you shared actually makes no mention of overbooking.

                    Unfortunately we can only speculate why they chose NFTs over traditional tickets.

                    I also have to point out that this article was written by and unnamed, “crypto believer,” and self-published in Medium by an NFT company. It’s not exactly a great source.

                    Don’t shoot the messenger. There are other sources available via Google. And the airline website describes it as ticketing 3.0

                    My point isn’t that they’re useless, just that their uses are overstated and create a financial bubble.

                    Agreed. Monkey pictures were genius marketing but absolutely useless. A porche 911 NFT isn’t much better. But real b2b use cases do exist (supplychain, green energy, shipping etc.).

                    Zuckerberg’s VR investment cost Facebook $60 billion.

                    I think his gamble will pay off for AR. Glasses will be mainstream and will make phones obsolete.

        • uranibaba@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          The most be something I don’t understand. Why would I buy flight tickets from a third party? Is there a market for this?

          • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            The idea is to allow efficient resale of airline seats (and for the airline to take a cut of that secondary market). Also proves to buyers that their flight is nor overbooked.

          • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            If you book through a travel agency or website, you are already buying 3rd party

            NFTs would prevent 3rd parties from overselling flights (this is a big problem actually and is borderline fraud)

    • pjwestin@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      Yeah, I heard about most of the supposed uses in the 10 paragraphs you wrote. Anyway, since none of those came to pass, and instead a bunch or people went bankrupt buying pictures of monkeys, I’d say the usefulness of NFTs has been determined.

      • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        You know, when reddit first started, no one minded long replies, in fact they were considered a mark of excellence and understanding. Long, accurate replies were almost always the top comment in non-meme subs.

        Then smart phones became popular and every idiot gained access to the web

        Suddenly, around 2012, you started seeing comments disparaging long replies as being ‘nerdy’ or ‘tryhard’. On FUCKING reddit, the HOME of the nerds!

        It was a real emotional whiplash to me for a place that once welcomed detailed discussion to start mocking users for creating quality reply content

        That’s when I realized the internet was fucked because of people like you.

        • pjwestin@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          You know, when reddit first started, no one minded long replies, in fact they were considered a mark of excellence and understanding.

          First of all, thank you for this. It is quite possibly the funniest sentence I’ve ever read on the internet, and I will be laughing at it for the rest of the day. The gamatical errors really give it an extra layer. Absolute perfection.

          Second, quantity isn’t quality, especially when it comes to writing. If it was, editor wouldn’t be a job. The length of your comment doesn’t change the fact that it is mostly pro-NFT arguments I heard in 2023, none of which materialized. Oh, NFTs could give you instant access to an apartment? That’s super helpful in a world where lockboxes don’t exist!

          Finally, despite your assumption, I don’t actually think long comments are bad; I just left a very long comment to someone who said something that was actually interesting. You also assumed I was insulting NFTs because I, “just like shitting on things other people designate as safe to shit on.” But I actually didn’t insult NFTs, I just pointed out that it bankrupted a bunch of crypto-bros. Which isn’t an opinion, its just a thing that happened. If you want to know what I actually think of NFTs, I answered that when I replied to the more interesting commenter. You’re welcome to go read it instead of making incorrect assumptions.

          Anyway, if you don’t like the quality of the replies you’re getting, maybe consider the quality of the comments you’re leaving. Maybe you shouldn’t expect someone to listen to you or engage with you in good faith when you start off by insulting them. Maybe the problem is you, not everyone else.