I’m getting so sick of Microsoft and Apples bullshit that I’m about to switch personally, but from the research i did it sounds like the biggest problem with Linux on the desktop is that there still aren’t standard, unified, unchanging APIs that can be relied upon, so finding third party software and utilities is still a crap shoot compared to something like Windows that can still run binaries that targets it’s 1995 era APIs.
Any software that requires me to compile it from source just to run it on my machine is fine for me, a software developer, and probably fine for my mum that just does word processing and browsing since she won’t be installing things, but seems a little too friction filled for your average enthusiast?
Depends on how fringe you go. There’s a remarkable amount of stuff that can be installed from the Program Manager. The ones that aren’t will take some tweaking but… I remember a time when I was trying to do this very thing in Windows 95. If you want it bad enough, you’ll figure it out.
I’m trying to channel my younger GenX, and if it’s a bit of a struggle for younger generations then I encourage them to embrace it. It’s an unfortunate truth that not everything works like it works on an IPhone, and I can’t overstate how important it is to learn some of the basics of the OS and troubleshooting for everyone’s future.
I’m trying to channel my younger GenX, and if it’s a bit of a struggle for younger generations then I encourage them to embrace it. It’s an unfortunate truth that not everything works like it works on an IPhone, and I can’t overstate how important it is to learn some of the basics of the OS and troubleshooting for everyone’s future.
Lol I’m a millenial software engineer. I grew up using Windows and was able to learn my way around a filesystem perfectly fine without ever having to compile any programs from source.
Don’t put Linux’s lack of stability on GenZ’s use of apps.
they mention genz specifically but boomers and millenials are falling down the same path expecting software to just download and work, Because of the google/apple/microsoft/sony/nintendo ecosystems we are so used to. But even in these ecosystems learning to troubleshoot is paramount so I expect to see younger people entering the linux sphere in droves.
You definitely are a minority though, most people dont care for this stuff at all. Most will simply give up instead of doing more research and trying different tactics to repair software and hardware.
they mention genz specifically but boomers and millenials are falling down the same path expecting software to just download and work, Because of the google/apple/microsoft/sony/nintendo ecosystems we are so used to.
They expect it to just work because literally every other product they buy just works and well made software should too.
Like, I’m the kind of person who will take apart a broken power tool or appliance, order replacement parts, and figure out whatever I have to to fix it… and that’s precisely why I try to pay for stuff that’s high enough quality that I don’t have to do that.
I value being able to repair things when they break, I don’t value things that are shipped with the expectation that I’m going to have to repair them, or learn a bunch of arcane stuff just to use them.
You definitely are a minority though, most people dont care for this stuff at all. Most will simply give up instead of doing more research and trying different tactics to repair software and hardware.
Most people have a millions different things they are trying to do with their lives, and there are a million and one different complicated systems in our world to spend your time obsessing over. Not everyone can or will understand how software is compiled.
The fact of the matter is that Microsoft’s approach to Windows created an enormous amount of stability and backwards compatibility that let an absolutely massive chunk of the population progress to being overall computer power users, without a computer science background or any knowledge of coding.
Linux has not done the same. It has many strengths, but it’s inability to maintain backwards (and cross distro) binary compatibility has hamstrung it as a consumer desktop tool.
Agree with everything you said except the last paragraph there are definitely too many distros all with different standards and design philosophies. And you are correct that this has stifled its use for standard consumers. But “linux” isnt working its way to becoming a new standard individual distros are attempting this. Popos ubuntu fedora are all fighting to become that consumer desktop experience and in some peoples opinion its 99% of the way there. We just need the amount of users to increase, For more valuable bug reports and feedback for that to actually happen.
Gui package managers are great for simple click and install usage similar to windows. but i prefer these since the list of apps is modderated by the repository you choose. So no more googling for a program and downloading a virus because of the 10 fake links google provides to your download. So imo its even safer for users like your mom looking for software is alot less risky.
That’s my point though, Linux is fine for power users and novices, its the middle ground of people who don’t code, aren’t going to learn how to code just to use an OS, but still understand computers enough to try and push them to do more.
There’s a huge amount of people smart enough to know that a piece of software or a few pieces of software can automate something, and can accurately evaluate whether or not to trust the source of an exe file, but who don’t understand what compiling from source is or how they should do that for their distro.
But thats what im saying even a middle ground user would never need to compile from source. Anything youd want to do automatically can generally be done from a script and many things you can think of automation wise has allready been made into a script in bash or python.
Just recently i needed to remove all of the foriegn titles from a list of roms i have on my pc. i found a python script on github dropped it into malwarebytes (because i didnt feel like looking at code, many windows users do this too) and ran the script. I can code but my skills are script kitty chatgpt level. Im essentially the user you are describing
You’re one step more advanced than the user I’m describing.
The user I’m describing roughly understands what the terminal is, and understands you can script with it maybe, but certainly doesn’t trust a random bash script they found since they have no way of parsing it and it looks like a hacker tool that might be able to access stuff on their PC it shouldn’t.
software or a few pieces of software can automate something, and can accurately evaluate whether or not to trust the source of an exe file
This is frustrating because what i did in the example with my roms and a python script is essentially the same as what a windows user would do the main difference being that a windows user probably wouldnt have to go to github because a fancy gui alternative software exists. The user still has to worry about viruses all the same, just because the exe has a website and a download page doesnt make it safer than a terminal based alternative. All users of all levels should be using malwarebytes at a minimum regardless of how safe it “looks”.
That being said i agree with you that many users are definitely intimidated by running programs in the terminal. and ive even seen some users joke about downloading suspicious software thinking its fine and then a spooky command prompt window apears.
I just think if you subtract peoples preconcieved notions about the terminal the actual usual experience and results are the same. The fact that windows has more gui programs just speaks to the fact that its been profitable and the standard to develop apps for windows and macos for far too long.
This is frustrating because what i did in the example with my roms and a python script is essentially the same as what a windows user would do the main difference being that a windows user probably wouldnt have to go to github because a fancy gui alternative software exists.
Agreed.
The user still has to worry about viruses all the same, just because the exe has a website and a download page doesnt make it safer than a terminal based alternative.
Agreed.
I just think if you subtract peoples preconcieved notions about the terminal the actual usual experience and results are the same.
Disagree.
When I run a GUI program and it just has a single button that says “do x”, I trust that this software will do x when I run it and nothing else. Why? Because the developer has designed an interface for me, where there is only a single thing, so if I trust the developer, I can assume it will do that thing.
When I download a bash script, I’m downloading a series of commands that I do not understand, and I hope that when I hit run it will do what I want. Maybe the developer has made a CLI interface that gives me some trust, most likely not.
The reality is that a polished GUi isn’t just shiny graphics, it’s an inherent signal of intent, attention to detail, and minimizes cognitive overload. When I’m presented with just a button all I can evaluate is whether I trust the developer, and whether or noti trust this one button. When I download a list machine instructions I can now evaluate the safety of every single one of them. Thats empowering for coders who can read code, it’s overwhelming and leads to decision paralysis for everyone else.
Even from a legality standpoint, if a company publishes a button that says “click me and I will do x”, they are opening themselves up to legal liability if that button does anything other than x. If a company publishes a list of instructions I don’t understand, they’re only liable if those instructions do something other than they say, and I cant evaluate that.
Even from a legality standpoint, if a company publishes a button that says “click me and I will do x”, they are opening themselves up to legal liability
The irony of this statement is that they do this all of the time when I run a game with kernal anticheat or DRM or even something as simple as data collection from chrome.
But you are correct I very likely devalue the importance of gui for standard users. since ive been in the linux sphere for so long and i did get used to scripting in windows aswell. This is one of those times where i agree with everything you are saying but my entire being wants you to be wrong, because it does not allign with my experience of reality.
I’m getting so sick of Microsoft and Apples bullshit that I’m about to switch personally, but from the research i did it sounds like the biggest problem with Linux on the desktop is that there still aren’t standard, unified, unchanging APIs that can be relied upon, so finding third party software and utilities is still a crap shoot compared to something like Windows that can still run binaries that targets it’s 1995 era APIs.
Any software that requires me to compile it from source just to run it on my machine is fine for me, a software developer, and probably fine for my mum that just does word processing and browsing since she won’t be installing things, but seems a little too friction filled for your average enthusiast?
Depends on how fringe you go. There’s a remarkable amount of stuff that can be installed from the Program Manager. The ones that aren’t will take some tweaking but… I remember a time when I was trying to do this very thing in Windows 95. If you want it bad enough, you’ll figure it out.
I’m trying to channel my younger GenX, and if it’s a bit of a struggle for younger generations then I encourage them to embrace it. It’s an unfortunate truth that not everything works like it works on an IPhone, and I can’t overstate how important it is to learn some of the basics of the OS and troubleshooting for everyone’s future.
Lol I’m a millenial software engineer. I grew up using Windows and was able to learn my way around a filesystem perfectly fine without ever having to compile any programs from source.
Don’t put Linux’s lack of stability on GenZ’s use of apps.
Heheh I have full respect for Millenials. Notice I just said ‘younger generations’.
they mention genz specifically but boomers and millenials are falling down the same path expecting software to just download and work, Because of the google/apple/microsoft/sony/nintendo ecosystems we are so used to. But even in these ecosystems learning to troubleshoot is paramount so I expect to see younger people entering the linux sphere in droves.
You definitely are a minority though, most people dont care for this stuff at all. Most will simply give up instead of doing more research and trying different tactics to repair software and hardware.
They expect it to just work because literally every other product they buy just works and well made software should too.
Like, I’m the kind of person who will take apart a broken power tool or appliance, order replacement parts, and figure out whatever I have to to fix it… and that’s precisely why I try to pay for stuff that’s high enough quality that I don’t have to do that.
I value being able to repair things when they break, I don’t value things that are shipped with the expectation that I’m going to have to repair them, or learn a bunch of arcane stuff just to use them.
Most people have a millions different things they are trying to do with their lives, and there are a million and one different complicated systems in our world to spend your time obsessing over. Not everyone can or will understand how software is compiled.
The fact of the matter is that Microsoft’s approach to Windows created an enormous amount of stability and backwards compatibility that let an absolutely massive chunk of the population progress to being overall computer power users, without a computer science background or any knowledge of coding.
Linux has not done the same. It has many strengths, but it’s inability to maintain backwards (and cross distro) binary compatibility has hamstrung it as a consumer desktop tool.
Agree with everything you said except the last paragraph there are definitely too many distros all with different standards and design philosophies. And you are correct that this has stifled its use for standard consumers. But “linux” isnt working its way to becoming a new standard individual distros are attempting this. Popos ubuntu fedora are all fighting to become that consumer desktop experience and in some peoples opinion its 99% of the way there. We just need the amount of users to increase, For more valuable bug reports and feedback for that to actually happen.
Gui package managers are great for simple click and install usage similar to windows. but i prefer these since the list of apps is modderated by the repository you choose. So no more googling for a program and downloading a virus because of the 10 fake links google provides to your download. So imo its even safer for users like your mom looking for software is alot less risky.
That’s my point though, Linux is fine for power users and novices, its the middle ground of people who don’t code, aren’t going to learn how to code just to use an OS, but still understand computers enough to try and push them to do more.
There’s a huge amount of people smart enough to know that a piece of software or a few pieces of software can automate something, and can accurately evaluate whether or not to trust the source of an exe file, but who don’t understand what compiling from source is or how they should do that for their distro.
But thats what im saying even a middle ground user would never need to compile from source. Anything youd want to do automatically can generally be done from a script and many things you can think of automation wise has allready been made into a script in bash or python.
Just recently i needed to remove all of the foriegn titles from a list of roms i have on my pc. i found a python script on github dropped it into malwarebytes (because i didnt feel like looking at code, many windows users do this too) and ran the script. I can code but my skills are script kitty chatgpt level. Im essentially the user you are describing
You’re one step more advanced than the user I’m describing.
The user I’m describing roughly understands what the terminal is, and understands you can script with it maybe, but certainly doesn’t trust a random bash script they found since they have no way of parsing it and it looks like a hacker tool that might be able to access stuff on their PC it shouldn’t.
This is frustrating because what i did in the example with my roms and a python script is essentially the same as what a windows user would do the main difference being that a windows user probably wouldnt have to go to github because a fancy gui alternative software exists. The user still has to worry about viruses all the same, just because the exe has a website and a download page doesnt make it safer than a terminal based alternative. All users of all levels should be using malwarebytes at a minimum regardless of how safe it “looks”.
That being said i agree with you that many users are definitely intimidated by running programs in the terminal. and ive even seen some users joke about downloading suspicious software thinking its fine and then a spooky command prompt window apears.
I just think if you subtract peoples preconcieved notions about the terminal the actual usual experience and results are the same. The fact that windows has more gui programs just speaks to the fact that its been profitable and the standard to develop apps for windows and macos for far too long.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Disagree.
When I run a GUI program and it just has a single button that says “do x”, I trust that this software will do x when I run it and nothing else. Why? Because the developer has designed an interface for me, where there is only a single thing, so if I trust the developer, I can assume it will do that thing.
When I download a bash script, I’m downloading a series of commands that I do not understand, and I hope that when I hit run it will do what I want. Maybe the developer has made a CLI interface that gives me some trust, most likely not.
The reality is that a polished GUi isn’t just shiny graphics, it’s an inherent signal of intent, attention to detail, and minimizes cognitive overload. When I’m presented with just a button all I can evaluate is whether I trust the developer, and whether or noti trust this one button. When I download a list machine instructions I can now evaluate the safety of every single one of them. Thats empowering for coders who can read code, it’s overwhelming and leads to decision paralysis for everyone else.
Even from a legality standpoint, if a company publishes a button that says “click me and I will do x”, they are opening themselves up to legal liability if that button does anything other than x. If a company publishes a list of instructions I don’t understand, they’re only liable if those instructions do something other than they say, and I cant evaluate that.
The irony of this statement is that they do this all of the time when I run a game with kernal anticheat or DRM or even something as simple as data collection from chrome.
But you are correct I very likely devalue the importance of gui for standard users. since ive been in the linux sphere for so long and i did get used to scripting in windows aswell. This is one of those times where i agree with everything you are saying but my entire being wants you to be wrong, because it does not allign with my experience of reality.