Visa and Mastercard are American companies, and they essentially tax everybody by taking a percentage of purchase prices for themselves. Not exactly a small percentage either, 1.2% to 2.65%. Ever wonder why so many merchants say they don’t accept American Express? That’s because they charge quite a bit more to merchantes, 50% more than Visa or Mastercard. Anyway, we’re letting American companies tax us and we love them because we get rewards when we use cards. But it’s just a shell game because we pay more up front because businesses need to charge more to make up for payment processing charges. They get to sit in the middle and rake in the money.
Now the alternative in Canada is Interac. Interac charges a set amount per transcation. How much? 2 to 5.5 cents. Unless you’re going through Apple or Google Pay, and then it’s a percentage again.
Interac is also Canadian.
Want to stick it to Trump? Stop using credit cards (and Google Pay or Apple Pay) and switch to Interac. Want to make Canada better? Stop using credit cards and switch to Interac. Is it going to be inconvenient? Yes. Online shopping will be much harder but I have seen online Interac payments before and we can ask our favourite Canadian merchants to accept Interac online.
So in regards to payment cards etc… the CC’s basically have three primary benefits to them: 1. They can do ‘quick’ settlements for in person POS services. 2. They are generally accepted for online payments far more than other methods. 3. They provide access to credit / funds that the customer/user may not normally have access to, in exchange for a high interest rate on amounts owing each month. This also allows people to make larger purchases periodically, and pay off the purchase price over a slightly longer period.
For item 1, the physical cards are not that different than the regular debit cards that get used. There’s nothing ‘technically’ stopping a debit card from being mapped to a line of credit account on a banking system – such a card would be able to get used anywhere debit cards can get used, so pretty good market penetration off the bat. Only thing potentially stopping the tech side would be ‘paper’ agreements with interac etc… but those are ‘easy’ to change with enough demand. So you’d potentially need some adjustments from industry to accommodate this, across the payment switch providers and back end orgs.
For item 3, the availability of credit on those cards / accounts is entirely do-able through a small FI – historically, they offered lines of credit based on ‘signatures’ / ‘a promise to pay’ and good general payment standing at a credit bureau. Canada’s regulators changed much of that, forcing industry to heavily preference real estate backed loans – debt servicing risks for cc ‘personal’ locs are generally offloaded onto the credit card company directly. So the govt would likely need to relax their regulations on this front, otherwise its untenable for a small FI to provide credit based on signatures. In some ways this would likely be better for the end user, in terms of rates and limits, as a smaller FI, especially one that’s cooperative in nature, is less likely to push exploitative rates/conditions.
To clarify how that’s controlled by regulators: in BC as an example, the BC FSA regulates Credit Unions, and it also oversees the Credit Union Deposit Insurance Corporation – the thing that insures the CU’s deposits. Credit Unions pay premiums to CUDIC based on the “risk assessment” of the FSA. The FSA rates you very risky if you do signature loans / stuff not backed by RE or other ‘fully funded’ types of securities (eg. a $5k line of credit, ‘secured’ by a $5k term deposit). The annual cost difference can eat up like 30% of the small FI’s profit, if they’re deemed risky. Unless there was some way to ‘make up’ that loss via the ‘risky loans’, it’s not a viable business decision for CUs to take – especially when you add in the need for slightly increased monitoring for more ‘fluid’ payment accounts. Best to keep the regulators happy, to keep your insurance costs as low as possible. So you’d need govt to change its approach.
For item 2, there are lots of viable options for online payments already – the issue is mostly user adoption and business standardization / app availability. For purchases that aren’t ‘in person’, having a slightly longer settlement time isn’t a big issue – if you’re buying a thing online, in general, who cares if the payment is ‘instant’, or if it takes 15 mins to clear. Things like the interac e-transfers are able to route payments to people in this fashion, and are heavily used in some areas currently – paying trades, paying rent, paying kids extracurricular, and anything where ‘cheques’ use to be a norm. AFTs are also still used for many ‘bigger’ bills/companies, but they’re decreasing in popularity – there are fewer millenials/genZ who are using AFTs for payments, and fewer businesses that go through the process of getting it setup on their end to allow for it. That last parts a similar impediment to adoption of etransfers more broadly – you see CC payment options for most online purchases, but you almost never see e-transfer options… even though they’re functional for regular person to person payments. Having a business email setup with an auto deposit isn’t too difficult – as noted, many small contractors go this route – but its not common at larger businesses… for no particular reason.
All that on item 2, is basically to say you need to get most businesses to adopt a ‘standard’ method for online payments. If every shop you went to had a different ‘payment app’ you had to download, create an account, transfer money to the account, to use the account… it wouldn’t have general end user appeal due to its burden. Credit cards have a simple, ubiquitous standard that’s got a ton of apps and plugins to accommodate – we’d need similar embracing of a, general industry/economy/nation wide approach.
All of these things are do-able, if there’s political will. But only if there’s political will. If you look at the financial industry, they’re generally in bed with US/foreign tech companies these days. Even our govt is run on Microsoft. Getting people to move away from American options would require clear messaging from regulators of “critical infrastructure” industries (like banking), and potentially options for government support as part of those tech migrations (tax breaks to hire specialists/retrain people/develop different apps). Like a positive step would be seeing the BC FSA charge huge “insurance” premiums for Credit Unions which are almost entirely in Microsoft’s cloud / US controlled infrastructure. We don’t see any of that currently – instead, we see regulators like the BC FSA shrugging as the industry debates whether online banking portals should be outsourced to a company in Portugal, one in India, or one in the USA (the Canadian CU Trade association, central1, recently walked away from this service area – with their CEO even getting a bloody business in vancouver award for abandoning it). We likely won’t see anything ‘material’ on this front until after the next election at the very earliest, is my guess. But even then, I doubt they’ll put the kind of urgency on it to avoid this sort of thing becoming a potential issue in trade talks.
What is ‘dicking around?’
When I was paying at a local shop recently, I mentioned to the owner I’m trying to pay cash now rather than card because Visa is a US company and he he thanked me, since using a credit card costs them money.
It’s not all or nothing as you have options folks:
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If you still want to use credit cards to increase your credit rating and to receive the cashback you can just Interac/cash/direct deposit for small businesses and charities then use the credit cards for the big guys.
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You can also just boycott Visa, Mastercard, American Express and Discover for the duration of the trade war or the Trump presidency.
Sometimes incremental change is the way to go.
Additional information from Goodsuniteus on the political contributions of the credit processors:
Visa: 51% democrat / 49% republican / very high contribution level.
Mastercard: 56% democrat / 44% republican / very high contribution level.
American Express: 56% democrat / 44% republican / very high contribution level.
Discover: 72% democrat / 28% republican / very high contribution level. (May be acquired by Capital One)
Capitol One: 48% democrat / 52% republican / contribution level very high.
PayPal: 66% democrat / 34% republican / contribution level high.
Apple Pay: 85% democrat / 15% republican / contribution level very high.
Google Pay: 85% democrat / 15% republican / contribution level very high.
Samsung Pay: 63% democrat / 37% republican / contribution level medium. (At least South Korean)
Why do companies put money on both parties? If I’m a candidate and they give money to my enemy it’s like not giving me money at all right? Right?
Good post. This is pretty much what I do.
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I nearly asked “What about American Express?”. Sometimes I wonder how I graduated kindergarten.
It’s okay, there are 35(?) countries I believe in America. 1 that gets talked about a lot. Being that they are discussing this from Canada in America, I’d say it’s safe to consider maybe American Express could have been from Canada. Mexico, Argentina, Brasil, and most other large countries in America aren’t English primary, so it would be harder to pass them off.
From my experience, all countries in North and South America (except the U.S.) refrain from referring to anything they do as American because they would 100% be assumed to be U.S.
Indeed, it took me a while to realize the other person meant “The Americas,” aka North and South America and not the US, aka “America.”
Mine as well. I also used to spell Brasil with a z, but since Bubba Gump tried to rename the Gulf of Mexico I’m avoiding our naming conventions.
Same with mastercard.
In Brazil, there is no alternative :(
For a huge chunk of the internet there isn’t one either. If Visa/Mastercard suddenly decide they don’t want to do business with you anymore, you’re fucked.
The Canadian banks are big enough to build a wholly Canadian credit system for global use, especially if they could get everyone in Canada (and maybe elsewhere) to switch right now.
They probably get too many incentives from Visa and Mastercard to find it enticing though, which is why they’re always pushing credit cards and offering cashback and airmiles, etc.
I think there is a European alternative being developed. Perhaps we can get in on that.
The Canadian banks are big enough to build a wholly Canadian credit system for global use
lol Canadian banks don’t even do their own credit analysis, and they rely on interac… they can’t even rollout the basics
I work for an American credit card company, and my advice is to ditch credit and debit cards entirely. Use cash.
Credit cards (when used correctly) is one of the few pro consumer products we have left.
Most cards come with fraud protection, something you cannot get with cash, checks, or gift cards.
Similarly, most cards come with purchase protections like extended warranties. I have a credit card that gives me free damage protection on my cell phone so long as I pay the monthly bill with it.
I’m not saying cash isn’t great but there are good reasons to use a credit card. At least for now.
I don’t think those benefits are worth it when you consider the cost of having your purchase history and personal data for sale to anyone who wants it.
Yeah one of the few fixes to our shitty situation is to end surveillance capitalism. It’s deconstructing our behaviors trending them and exploiting them vs ourselves and the people around us.
Cash becomes a component of a healthy surveillance free (ish) lifestyle. But you probably wouldn’t be posting on any internet site if you were all in on it enough for swapping over to cash to matter. haha.
Eh, the job comes with certain expectations, they don’t even have cash tills in the cafeteria.
I use my credit cards just enough to generate a plausibly normal profile, and cash for everything else.
I’ve been looking for a more ethical job, but the market for tech work is real fucked up right now…
As another American who works in the industry, it’s a wedding cake of frighteningly bad software piled on top of well-intentioned but poorly implemented mandates piled on top of willful ignorance frosted with solving problems people don’t actually have. And the little couple on top are both the capitalist pigman from a 1930s Soviet poster that we all recognize thanks to Hexbear :`(
I prefer cash too.
Good info from the inside, thanks. I had some money in a Digital Payments ETF but I recently dumped it and moved the money to a European fund instead. This makes me feel a bit better about that decision.
I would love to hear your side of things. Cash is better for curbing impulse spending and it is of course anonymous but it is inconvenient. I feel like there’s a target on my back when I walk around with more than a couple hundred dollars.
If enough people know you’re carrying that much cash for it to be a potential issue, you’ve got other security issues that should honestly be your priority.
There also is no middle-man with cash.
My personal opinion is that the convenience isn’t worth the unspoken costs, much less the overt ones. Credit card processors already charge merchant fees on top of the interest charged by the banks that issue those cards, but they also get all your personal data associated with that card. It’s more than enough to be worth selling to advertisers, so anyone who cares to spend a few bucks can buy your purchase history and build a profile. Name, address, contact info, the coffee shop you visit regularly and when you can be found there, the daycare you send your kids to, etc. It’s very not-safe, especially when the government decides your type of person is now unpersoned.
More fundamentally though, I think the problem comes down to money itself. The use of any form of currency as both a store of value and a medium of exchange creates a multitude of perverse incentives to the detriment of society. Families work best when money isn’t coming between them, and I think that principle is generalizable to our species as a whole.
The Guardian published a story today about how Sweden’s move to a cashless society is backfiring on them.
Well, when on business trips, I can’t just have a bunch of cash with me, so I could pay for hotels and every eventuality
Is there any way around that?Best I can think of is taking a traveler’s check to a local bank or currency exchange.
Hm…ok, thanks
I’ll evaluate my alternatives
Also, sometimes buying something online, because I quickly need the hardware, only really works with credit cards.
All though real time money transfers at least start to speed up the traditional way …
Checkbooks exist for a reason.
Ok now, let’s not go bringing back that nonsense. Cash is fine. You’re no more likely to be robbed than usual because you’re carrying a lot, and you can do what I do. If you need to carry a lot of money in cash, put $49 in your wallet and the rest in your sock.
I have carried $100-500 sometimes as high as $2k in my wallet for decades without a problem. Usually on the lower end of the 100-500 range unless I think I’ll need it.
This might be a problem for someone who can’t hold onto their belongings and leaves a trail of lost things everywhere they go. It might also be a problem for someone who lives in an area with high petty crime where they can expect to get jumped every once in a while. This is unlikely to be a problem for most people in the US states and European countries I’ve spent time in. Even in Argentina, which is not the safest place, I use cash exclusively.
As others have mentioned, when it starts getting into that $500-$1k range, you always have checks, wire transfers, Western Union, etc. I’m not selling out my privacy for a $5 bagel if I can help it.
Canadian debit cards are very different than American cards.
Ahh, so as an American my only option is cash. 😔
Cash is better for privacy too. Don’t be paying for that abortion, gun, or donation to environmental cause in this climate with Visa.
Not denying that. Most card purchases my family has is for groceries or clothing anyways.
A book here and there.
Ah yes, groceries. Link up a 100% accurate list of all the specific items you buy with your name. I thought some American stores did this for a while but am not sure.
I don’t have much experience with American cards. I know debit cards are more common down there. Do they have the same merchant fees?
They’re usually also managed by visa and such. I can’t remember the exact numbers, but they have a higher initial fee and a lower percentage for a purchase.
I actually need the cash back I get from my credit card though, it’s more than 1000 per year
But you do understand that if credit card cash backs didn’t exist, prices would likely fall by more than the cash back?
Here is the problem. You’re not going to get the general population to care enough to change their behavior, and then the only people who miss out are the people who are no longer getting their cash back off their whiny self-righteous protest that amounted to less than a rounding error.
Case in point: I live in one of the most liberal cities in the United States. There is technically supposed to be a one month long boycott (lol) of Target right now. Guess the parking lot of which local retailer is still as packed as it always is every day?
People won’t give a shit until they are massively inconvenienced with no alternatives.
Yeah that makes sense
People prefer cards over carrying cash though, and you have to kinda work to collect the cashback. Most don’t bother, which is why the system is profitable overall.
Honestly I think you’re better off extracting money from a large corporation you don’t like (if you can, it’s obviously difficult) compared to ignoring them.
For example, if you really hate a company, flood their sales line with nonsensical calls. It’ll usually be a domestic agent for the sales line, and in Australia at least the average cost to answer a call fully loaded, charged by a call centre management company, is around $30AUD. You also increase demand for low paid workers. If you could figure out a way to do this en-masse for a company without annoying the individual agent, you could do some serious financial damage in a way that’s probably legal.
Edit: If I hated a company, and I had a lonely/senile relative, I would give them a special phone where every button on the phone called the sales line. That way the elderly relative gets a chat and keeps their brain active, and you get to cost the company hundreds of dollars a day. The sales agent is also unlikely to be bothered by an occasional chat with a senile person to break up their day.
I’m on board for this but this proposal is up against a familiar devil: the network effect.
Shops support Visa and Mastercard because customers use them, customers use them because shops support them. This creates a powerful network that is extremely difficult for an upstart to unseat.
So while it’s a good idea to encourage people to take individual action on this — and you’re doing a great job doing so, and I’m taking it to heart for my own actions — we also need to accompany this with a policy solution to help overcome the network effect.
You’re right and the network effect would be very hard to overcome for this. It would need a lot of media attention just like liquor and alcohol.
I whipped this up too.
Add interac and keep fees in Canada slogan
This is super cool. And you’ve inspired this Canadian to start moving more payments to Interac. Love the message and I’m on board.
My suggestion to accompany this with policy is not an alternative to taking personal action, but complementary.
One piece of constructive feedback on the artwork— it might be helpful to stress the positive aspect front and centre. For example lead with Interac with a maple leaf, and the American systems in lower prominence by having them 2/3 sized and positioned below.
Please don’t misconstrue my feedback in your mind as an attempt to distract or demoralize you through bike-shedding or anything like that. You’re doing great stuff and it’s inspiring.
So glad I could inspire you! And I didn’t take any offense to your comments. I just kinda woke up angry this morning (my other pet peeve is unsynchronized traffic lights) and made this post. I suppose I could put some real work into making an image that can be shared. I like your ideas.
I feel you on that. I’ve been on a bit of a tear myself, spilling thousands of words on this site and Reddit and Bluesky in various posts and comments.
You have a point when it comes to online shopping (although I’d call it a simple monopoly), but there’s no such effect at physical stores. Interac and cash are already universally accepted, people can stop using visa/mastercard right now and not even have to think about it. Just grab a different card when you leave the house.
Needs to be a solution for those of us who are housebound and/or rural. Online is our only option.
You’re correct that it’s a monopoly, but the point I’m trying to make is that because of the network effect the monopoly will be difficult to unseat without accompanying policy.
For this to work, Interac needs to incentivize using it like credit cards do.
All types of loans require a credit score of some kind, and credit cards are one of the best ways to build this. Additionally, credit cards usually offer some kind of return.
Also because of poverty, a lot of people have a dependency on credit or payment plans.
Interac needs to make a Canadian answer to the credit card.
I’m European. We don’t get credit card benefits, we just get stolen from. Everyone uses them nonetheless.
Oh wow no cash back at all??
What is it? You always pay the exact amount, why any cash (change) back?
On a lot of credit cards you get rewards for using them, like interest income. Basically the more you use it, the more interest you get, and you’ll get a credit in your account annually.
Some cards have different rewards like 2% back on all grocery spending for example.
Oh, we don’t have that. Nor air miles. Nor easy refunds.
I suppose the “richer” Europeans do though, I heard it referenced in an English movie of the same name.
Also, we never used checks, pretty much. Probably contributed to the explosion of CC use in the 90s despite the lack of benefits.
an English movie of the same name
Is that a Cashback reference?
Yup! It’s the most recent movie I’ve seen.
That’s very interesting, I learned something new today!
I’ve only ever used a debit card when I was in Europe. There was zero incentive to get a credit card. Moving in the US was different, I needed to build credit and cards were the best way.
Now I have a Prime card because 90%+ of my spending is on Amazon and at Whole Foods, both of which give 5% cash back. I get thousands every year, something really hard to give up. I wish I could stop giving Bezos money, but the convenience of Amazon is just too much of an advantage for me. And I know that shopping is now just a drop in their earnings compared to AWS.
Many credit cards in North America have a cash back or loyalty points scheme. In cash back, you essentially get a cut of the network fee back as virtual value to pay off your statement. With points, you earn the points based on the amount spent, and can redeem them for things like travel or gift cards. Some merchant categories earn more as an incentive (e.g. 2% of purchase value or 10 points per dollar for groceries and monthly automatic bills, 1% or 5 points on everything else).
Edit: Oh and I should mention, some offer complementary car and travel insurance benefits, airport lounge access, electronic device insurance too. So it’s definitely compelling for a lot of people, since >90% of places don’t offer cash discounts or CC Fee, so people would essentially get or lose the benefits with no difference in price.
Well, we get none of that, which is why most cards used here are debit cards despite all being colloquially known as “kreditky”.
You can get a line of credit from your local bank, tranfser the available funds into your checking account on demand, then use your Interac card. The amount and rates are variable, so you can start with a small amount with a high rate (like starter credit cards), and as you build a reputation, you can be loaned larger amounts at a better rate. No third party credit card company required.
This is definitely one of the biggest hurdles with getting rid of credit cards, the lack of easy credit history.
Going the line of credit route is ok, but there’s no grace period before interest is charged, unlike most credit cards. So it’s something to be aware of.
Part of the problem for me is that paying interest to RBC, BMO, Scotiabank, TD, CIBC, BN in place of American payment networks when they aren’t really hurting for money, is not really helpful or impactful for anyone except for me in a negative way.
Credit unions do exist, and they keep money in the community much better than the big banks do.
The main reason to ditch Visa and Mastercard is hopefully if they get hit hard enough they’ll lean on Trump to shut up about annexing Canada. Greenland and Panama too.
There’s absolutely a way, for sure, I just mean it’s gonna be difficult to get most people on board until there is an option just as or more convenient than the current one.
Mileage may vary, but in my experience in attempting to get a line of credit, theres a lot more information that needs to be not only shared (for the banks and credit unions I’ve tried applying to, both and credit card statements for the last 3 months needed to be shared, along with a written explanation on what I’d need a line of credit for).
The barrier to approval is rather high as well, especially if you don’t have any assets to provide as collateral (for a secured line of credit at least.)
It’s doubly a challenge if you don’t have a “good enough” net worth as well which if you’re out of school and had to take out student loans, then you’re already starting out with negative net worth.
In comparison, I was blanketly approved for multiple credit cards and all I had to provide was the necessary identifying information and a salary.
It sounds like I’m shooting down the option of getting a line of credit, but it can be a very difficult process to obtain one unless you can get a guarantor to co-sign, or you happen to be in a financially secured position to begin with, which isn’t the case for a lot of people, but still a very good option to attempt at getting.
is this the same interac corporation that won’t do anything about their god awful etransfer system? no app like venmo or cashapp? how many years did it take them to implement autodeposit? why do etransfers sometimes take 1 hour?
You’re complaining about something Interac does that credit cards can’t even do? I’ll wait while you send money with Visa by text.
No. I’m comparing interac to Venmo.
Ah, I see. I was comparing Interac to credit cards.
my point is that Interac is not without faults. They have an unfair monopoly over peer to peer transfers of money between banks.
I’ve given up taking visa / Amex / Mastercard. My business now only accepts Interac e-transfer and cash.
Interac is hands down the most secure way to pay for something. I never have to take a card from a customer, the customer never has to take on additional debt, the money is automatically deposited into my account within seconds, and it costs me absolutely no money to do this and I have to pay no money to a merchant to make it happen.
I wish I could do this at more places.
