The poll found 50% of Democrats approve of how Biden has navigated the conflict while 46% disapprove ā€” and the two groups diverge substantially in their views of U.S. support for Israel. Bidenā€™s support on the issue among Democrats is down slightly from August, as an AP-NORC poll conducted then found that 57% of Democrats approved of his handling of the conflict and 40% disapproved.

  • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Or they could have been brutally honest and said ā€œmore than half of democrats approve of enabling genocideā€.

    And before you say ā€œbut Trump and the Republicans are much worseā€, yes thatā€™s obviously true but thatā€™s besides the point.

    • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Or they could have been brutally honest and said ā€œmore than half of democrats approve of enabling genocideā€.

      Actually, if they were being genuinely honest, it would be more like ā€œmore than half of democrats think Bidenā€™s making the best choice in an all-round shitty situationā€. None of us approve of enabling genocide.

      Some people actually think ā€œpushing Israel to set rules of engagementā€ is some of the best weā€™re going to get if we canā€™t get the entire world on-board. Nobody wants to invade Israel to stop this (do they), and Israel is out for blood right now. Trying to focus them towards Hamas and not ā€œdestroying Palastineā€ might be the only win we can have 7,000 miles away.

      Iā€™m a fence-sitter on this issue, but I think the majority that supports Bidenā€™s plan do so for reasons that have nothing to do with ā€œenabling genocideā€.

      I get that you want us to condemn Israel. And Iā€™m sure itā€™s been considered. I also undersetand there are ramifications to the US of doing that, and it wonā€™t necessarily save a single Palestinian life.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Actually, if they were being genuinely honest, it would be more like ā€œmore than half of democrats think Bidenā€™s making the best choice in an all-round shitty situationā€. None of us approve of enabling genocide.

        Thatā€™s a self-contradiction since what you guys think is the ā€œbest choiceā€ is objectively enabling genocide by unquestioningly supporting the government committing it while punishing those that speak up against it.

        Some people actually think ā€œpushing Israel to set rules of engagementā€ is some of the best weā€™re going to get

        It isnā€™t, though. Israel has been setting their own rules the whole time and thatā€™s the majority of what caused the whole thing.

        Nobody wants to invade Israel

        Of course not.

        Israel is out for blood right now. Trying to focus them towards Hamas and not ā€œdestroying Palastineā€ might be the only win we can have 7,000 miles away.

        Thatā€™s not being done, though. Unless thereā€™s consequences such as withholding military (but not humanitarian) aid and possibly targeted sanctions, the apartheid regime is going to continue committing atrocities.

        I think the majority that supports Bidenā€™s plan do so for reasons that have nothing to do with ā€œenabling genocideā€.

        Yes and no: I believe that most of the people who supports his genocide-enabling are under- or misinformed enough to not know that theyā€™re indirectly supporting genocide.

        I get that you want us to condemn Israel.

        Of course. Anything else is being complicit.

        And Iā€™m sure itā€™s been considered.

        Probably not seriously, no. The neoliberal Dem leadership depend too much on bribes from AIPAC and others like them.

        I also undersetand there are ramifications to the US of doing that, and it wonā€™t necessarily save a single Palestinian life

        I guarantee you that no longer getting the financial and political support of the US would force them to be less aggressive, which would save thousands of lives.

        • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Thatā€™s a self-contradiction since what you guys think is the ā€œbest choiceā€ is objectively enabling genocide

          I think objectively doesnā€™t mean what you think it means. But more importantly, even if youā€™re right about there being a better response than Bidenā€™s (and you might be; itā€™s a complicated issue), that doesnā€™t mean people who support Bidenā€™s position agree that youā€™re right. Which means, NO, objectively, they do not ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€. Just look at literally the other reply to me that agreed with me at length. And if there are at least two people who support Bidenā€™s decisions in this thread alone that do not ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€, then I bet you any money thereā€™s at least 2 more out in the US. ā€œPerhaps more than that!ā€

          I called you on your bad-faith accusation that Democratic voters ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€, and nothing in your reply to me reduces the accuracy of what I called you on. Youā€™re just getting into the weeds arguing politics now.

          If you want, Iā€™d be happy to join that conversation as well. As soon as you concede that the ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€ thing was excessive and bad faith.

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Itā€™s a fact that the tack Biden is taking amounts to enabling genocide. Whether you know that or not, saying you approve of his handling of the situation is saying that you approve of enabling genocide no matter if you know it or not.

            In other words:

            1. Bidenā€™s plan is objectively enabling genocide

            2. Some people who donā€™t consider themselves in favor of enabling genocide support Biden

            3. The thing that those people say they support is enabling genocide, no matter how ignorant of reality or in denial they are.

            • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              Curious who made Viking Hippie the sole arbiter of truth. How many experts disagreeing with you makes it less ā€œweā€™re all objectively enabling genocideā€?

              What if I think Viking Hippie is ā€œobjectively enabling genocideā€? Itā€™s a fact (ok, itā€™s just a thought experiment). That means I get to say anyone that agrees with you is ā€œobjectively enabling genocideā€, right?

              • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                3 days to come back with ā€œyouā€™re wrong because itā€™s arrogant to be confident that youā€™re youā€™re right when people are paid to be wrongā€? Damn, youā€™re really bad at this! šŸ˜‚

                • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  With all due respect, when your opinion is ā€œyour argument AND the supermajority is wrong because I said soā€, you donā€™t leave an opening for anything more constructive.

                  I donā€™t make a good Soyjak

                  • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    What supermajority would that be? Only Republicans surpass the 60% threshold and surely you donā€™t consider them arbiters of truth.

                    As for what Iā€™m basing my argument on, itā€™s the Geneva Convention and countless UN motions defeated by ridiculous vetoes from a partisan US delegation.

                    What the Israeli government is doing is by definition several kinds of war crimes, including genocide and ethnic cleansing.

                    Thatā€™s what Biden is supporting by supporting the Israeli government so, whether youā€™re aware of it and generally ok with genocide or not, supporting what Biden is doing is by definition supporting the enabling of genocide.

                    Do you get it now or are your partisan blinders so thick as to make you ideologically incapable of understanding that those you support can sometimes do indefensible things?