Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.


French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.

Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.

Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.

He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.

Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.

Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.

“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.

But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.


‘Worst consequences’

Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.

He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.

“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.

An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.

The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.


    • Kosh [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      French people will claim that secularism is the most important value in all of France but them half of the national days off are Catholic holidays.

      • Landrin201@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Also I’m willing to bet really good money that if a nun wore a habit to a beach, she wouldn’t get fined. A muslim woman wearing a burkini would though.

    • pedro@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      You’re mistaken on the definition of racism. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with how France deals with secularism

      • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Yeah, everything to do with secularism. That’s why France has Christian public holidays. And Macron called for closer ties between the state and Catholic church, and said Europe has “Judeo Christian roots”. Oh wait…

        • pedro@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Again, this is not racism. There are white Muslims and black christians everywhere in France

          • Adkml [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Ok it’s a slightly different form of bigotry does that make it ok since your only argument seems to be “it’s not racism because it doesn’t explicitly say it’s discriminating against a specific race”

      • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        What’s even the point of this line of argument? At best you prove that this technically isn’t racism in the strictest definitional sense but it’s still just as harmful to kids and Muslims as racism.

          • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Actually, I shot everyone in that refugee camp regardless of religion so I didn’t do genocide, just ordinary everyday mass murder smuglord.

            This was an actual argument that was run in one of the Yugoslav tribunals BTW.

        • axont [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          I don’t think you could define this as strictly not racist, since “race” constitutes arbitrary characteristics decided upon largely by white hegemony. It’s how Africans became a singular black race despite being different cultures and language groups. It’s why Jews are sometimes white, sometimes not.

          It’s absolutely why most Americans consider a native Spanish speaker a different race, no matter how white they are. We’re in a moment where being Muslim is a racial marker excluding a person from whiteness.

          Here’s a trick I do. Go show an uniformed white American a picture of Bashar al-Assad. Every time I’ve done this, they’ll say he’s a white guy. Then tell them he’s the president of Syria and a Muslim. They instantly flip.

      • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        secular means not taking a religious stance and being neutral about it. Being secular would mean letting people wear them as they choose not allowing people to wear religious attire is taking a religious stance and thus isn’t secular

        rather than secularity this is religious persecution

      • TheCaconym [any]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        I’m French and actually he’s bang on the money, it’s entirely about racism under the bullshit cover of “secularity”

        • pedro@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          I’m also French and I don’t know, maybe you’re right and that’s a way to hide the real racist motives. I’m probably biased because I dislike all religions equally though

          • What_Religion_R_They [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Dislike all religions equally… blah blah blah… some religions more equally than others blah blah

            Maybe think of the outcome of your country’s rightism instead of being so preoccupied with sticking it to the religions very-intelligent

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            I’m an antitheist and, speaking as one, let me request that you pull your head out of whatever it is stuck in. France is notoriously Islamophobic and these are girls who are just wearing loose-fitting clothes because of a religious practice based on modesty. Is either the religion or the practice itself above critique? Certainly not, but forcing people not to do something so harmless is ridiculous religious discrimination.

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Religion in France is racialized as it is in most parts of the world, pretending otherwise is just a denial of reality and history, the French state couldn’t care less for secularism on its own merits, it only cares about religion in the context of the eternal “immigrant” communities who it refuses to actually integrate because of the continuous French colonial mindset and a 19th century conception of frenchness which is centered around white pan-europeanism

        If secularism was the point, the french state would have launched a social crusade against the Catholic church decades ago

        It’s not a coincidence the law was implemented in 2004 at the height of the war on terror

  • Armen12@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    I don’t want religion in schools, outside that, you’re still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right

  • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    “Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

    I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn’t know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.

    I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don’t approve. But I don’t want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.

    • Adkml [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it.

      The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread

      Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.

      Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.

      • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief

        there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don’t fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have

        • Adkml [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Your right should have said there’s multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.

      • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.

        The second is a good argument in that I wasn’t factoring the requirement (which I kinda don’t care about because I reject religion, so I know that I’m wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

        The third is just silly.

        • Adkml [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Wow. So literally saying they should just assimilate, so much for that whole “they have to respect our culture because we respect theirs”

          Also yea the third point was stupid, it was to illustrate how dumb your argument was.

          Bit then you just came out and admitted to being a bigot and leapfrogging my point.

  • Anamnesis@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    People should be allowed to wear what they want. That said, nobody should voluntarily wear these terrible symbols of sexism and oppression. The literal religious purpose of the abaya and even the hijab is to promote modesty, with the rationale that men can’t control themselves and it’s women’s responsibility to do that for them. Fuck that message and fuck the ideology that it perpetuates.

    • electrogamerman@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This is exactly the problem. If men had to cover their bodies, I wouldnt mind it, but because only women have to cover their bodies, it is sexist.

      • Yoru@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        men have to cover their bodies as well, just not as much as women. I think it’s unfair to assume gender equality will ever be real because of the amount of difference they both have.

  • Wahots@pawb.social
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    1 year ago

    “Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”

    I agree with it, not in the “hah, we are dunking on minorities” way, but just because I’m personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we’ve seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called “religious rights” despite being a secular country. While France’s version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.

    If it wasn’t religion, I’m positive it would be something else. But I think it’s very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.

    • bouh@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Laicity is tolerance. What’s happening currently is the opposite of tolerance. It’s extremism the same as the most zealous fanatics, it’s merely fascist zeal instead of religious zeal.

  • Hyperreality@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    For those who don’t get this, ‘Laïcité’ is what the French call the secularism which is part of their constitution.

    Plenty are as serious about it, as many in the US are about free speech or the right to own a gun.

    Obviously this is also in part a more recent phenomenon. France has a large Muslim population and laïcité is arguably interpreted more strictly by those who wish to combat the influence of Islam on French mainstream culture.

    • Floufym@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      To be fair, it is more correct to say « France is a racist country hiding behind laïcité and feminism to justify their Islamophobia. »

      • sudneo@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        All other religious symbols are also banned (in schools), so this argument seems pretty weak. One can agree or disagree, but considering religion a private matter that should stay out of the public buildings is a perfectly legitimate stance, in my opinion.

      • electrogamerman@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Its funny that Islamists use the term “Islamophobia” considering they teach an homophobic culture themselves. Dont ask for tolerance if you are not willing to be tolerant yourself.

  • Venus [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    Sincere question. Obviously France is racist as fuck and instituting (or enforcing, whichever) policies in a racist way. But I’m seeing a lot of people saying that these outfits being banned are not actually religious at all, and are only culturally popular within the cultures of the people being targeted. If that’s the case, why are they still coming to school wearing them? If I were a kid and the government suddenly decided I’m not allowed to wear blue jeans to school, I’d wear khaki pants and then meet up with my friends and say “wtf is the deal with this new policy”

    If they’re just clothes and not religious garb, why are kids still wearing them to schools which don’t allow them?

  • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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    1 year ago

    After looking at what an abaya is and understanding some of the overt and covert reasons for doing this and the reaction, the cool solution would be if abayas (they’re really just a loose dress) started to be marketed at everyone, so that anyone could wear them and end this stupid debacle. What do people wear in the west if they don’t want people to look at their “curves” anyway? Huge market gap, right there. Or maybe instead of abayas they’ll start wearing long trench coats to school, lol.

    PS: meanwhile, in SA: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-women-socialmedia-idUSKCN1NL2A1

    • Armen12@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      “Women in Saudi Arabia have for decades been required to wear the abaya - a loose, all-covering robe - in public, a dress code strictly enforced by police.”

      And there are still people in here defending this lol

  • Etterra@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    How much of human stupidity can be boiled down to “I don’t like you wearing a silly hat,” I wonder.