This system needs to be destroyed and a new one rebuilt in its place
How confident are you that what rises from the ashes of what what surely amount to WWIII (you don’t think the rest of the world is going to watch on the sidelines while the U.S. is in a war over capitalism do you?) is the utopia you hope for and not warlords, nuclear disaster, or an even worse version of the U.S. with a different name?
If we make it out of this shitty situation we’re in it will be by culturally evolving beyond capitalism, away from systems based on mutual exploitation and towards systems based on mutual cooperation. Never in history has a violent revolution ended up with a stable, sustainable, and equitable society.
Those willing to bet on violent revolution are extremely entitled. Why do you feel entitled to cause massive pain and suffering to others to attain your political goals?
Massive pain and suffering is upon us and worsening by the day, whether you would risk it or not.
Is it just because you feel like you’re in a relatively comfortable position that you think the above mass suffering is defensible? Because if this in fact a society, that suffering is our responsibility and shame upon our heads.
Massive pain and suffering is upon us and worsening by the day
agreed
Is it just because you feel like you’re in a relatively comfortable position that you think the above mass suffering is defensible?
I’m a Mexican trans woman, I don’t know how comfortable that makes me in the U.S. in 2024. For now I have a job and and a home and since my transition around 2002, my civil rights have mostly been growing except for where Republicans have prevented Democrats from helping (I want to be clear I’m not pro Democrat, I just can’t see the group that wants to kill me as equivalent to the one who gave me a right to housing and employment).
In fact, much of my motivation for this conversation is because I feel if Trump wins my life will be in immediate danger, he’s made clear his intentions; under Biden it is not.
And what makes you think I find the current situation of mass suffering defensible? You understand the word “worse” right? You used a form of it in your reply so obviously. Worse means it’s bad now and will get MORE BAD. Trump WILL BE VERY MUCH WORSE FOR NEARLY EVERYONE. Unless you’re an accelerationist, Trump will make any goals you might have of making the world a better place much much more difficult and risky.
Those links you gave me, do you think suicides will go down under Trump? Do you think your rent will go down under Trump? You realize, if Biden doesn’t win we get Trump right? The alternative to Biden isn’t whatever your utopia is.
This election is like being on a game show, behind door number one is Republican who wants to kill me and others I care about. Behind the other door is someone giving me a a Spam sandwich so I don’t starve to death while they dine in luxury. Which should I choose? ** There is no third option.** You think revolution is needed or something? Work on that AND take a few minutes to vote for those who will make your work easier and reduce suffering for vulnerable populations.
And if you bring up genocide, you don’t think the guy who moved the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem is going to end the genocide do you? If so, hook me up with your dealer, that’s some crazy shit you’re smoking.
Because if this in fact a society, that suffering is our responsibility and shame upon our heads.
I don’t know about you but I’m effectively trapped in this society. If there was a realistic option to move to another where I wasn’t ashamed I might consider it. I have friends that left the country, it’s a lot of work and takes a lot of money if you don’t want to end up in a bad situation away from everyone that can help you. But I’m more of a fighter than a flighter, I’m going to stay and stand up for my fam.
Yeah, I’m a democratic socialist. I primaried and phone banked for Sanders twice. I don’t know where she’s getting off thinking I think making the current system go full fascist is the same as starting fresh and building an equitable economy and society with social supports.
Trump loves the current system and is a direct product of it, and his prominence is a direct result of the Reagan’s impact on the culture. He might as well be the current system’s, that I loathe, mascot.
He’s who we are, greed and greed worship incarnate, and that’s the problem.
He’s refuting my anti-tankie points and seems to think violent revolution is the answer. Every tankie I’ve ever talked to was very much against voting, and particularly for Biden. Trump is Biden’s likely opponent, Trump is who we get if Biden loses.
Violent revolution or collapse are the only ways things will begin to improve. Our framework is too hacked for self-repair to be possible, let alone likely. Rejecting Reagan would have been the last chance of an offramp to save the current framework.
I vote Democrat in the same way the Titanic crew kept the water pumps running, it bought a little time as they sank, it wasn’t a solution. It is a desperate play to slow the descent slightly. Biden And Trump both worship the market capitalists destroying us, to slightly different degrees. Wall Street is our society’s blight, DC is just a symptom of that.
“Tankies” don’t own revolution and never did. Russia sucks. Putin should be assassinated. Free Palestine and Ukraine.
I can respect someone who says violent revolution or collapse is the only way yet votes to protect the vulnerable however little it may matter, especially if they work toward ensuring what comes after isn’t even worse. I’m of the opinion that cultural evolution is an even more powerful force and that’s why so much energy is put into preventing unity of the people.
Accelerationist Xi and Putin supporting tankies though are delusional, I only argue with them because I feel they have empathy and sympathy and are mistaken on their methods.
Because the people we oppose are already committing mass violence on people. Evil people do not respond to peace, they only respond to violence. The only way to end their violence is using violence to ensure they can’t do it.
I can understand that to some degree, I’m not a pacifist. But I am a realist, so I don’t think a few thousand Lemmy users and a few thousand Reddit users are going to have any success in a full on violent revolution against the most powerful forces the world has ever seen, one that actually ends capitalism. Talking that way alienates people, most people aren’t willing to die for communism, they don’t know what it is and we’re doing a poor job of educating them. They want frappacinos and our rulers know to provide bread and circuses, enough to prevent revolution.
You can’t change the way billions of people around the world think by starting a revolution, you can make things worse by starting factional wars or getting all the leftists wiped out leaving cowards. Evolution by natural selection (slow) and cultural change (fast) are the only juggernauts capable of the real change this planet needs to survive this era. You may not see culture changing, but I assure you changes are happening crazy fast, we need to direct this change, and we are. The internet is key to this change.
I"m of the opinion that there is a very small number of truly evil people, they are the rulers and their protectors (those willing to wear a uniform and/or carry a badge and kill innocents on order for pay or loyalty) and a large number of gullible idiots. If we want to win, we need to figure out how to deactivate this idiot army and block propaganda. The long-term goal needs to be to leave these psychopaths unprotected by the state, community self-defense will take care of the rest.
No, certainly random forum folk won’t. But unions certainly could, if we got them enough power. All the strongest people, with leverage over critical infrastructure. But in the meantime, before unions have enough power for that, I think it does basically just fall on random forum folk to get-together IRL and protest against these issues, violently where necessary.
How confident are you that what rises from the ashes of what what surely amount to WWIII (you don’t think the rest of the world is going to watch on the sidelines while the U.S. is in a war over capitalism do you?) is the utopia you hope for and not warlords, nuclear disaster, or an even worse version of the U.S. with a different name?
If we make it out of this shitty situation we’re in it will be by culturally evolving beyond capitalism, away from systems based on mutual exploitation and towards systems based on mutual cooperation. Never in history has a violent revolution ended up with a stable, sustainable, and equitable society.
Those willing to bet on violent revolution are extremely entitled. Why do you feel entitled to cause massive pain and suffering to others to attain your political goals?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/u-s-homelessness-up-12-percent-to-highest-reported-level-as-rents-soar-and-pandemic-aid-lapses
https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/a-look-at-the-latest-suicide-data-and-change-over-the-last-decade/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/505745/depression-rates-reach-new-highs.aspx
Massive pain and suffering is upon us and worsening by the day, whether you would risk it or not.
Is it just because you feel like you’re in a relatively comfortable position that you think the above mass suffering is defensible? Because if this in fact a society, that suffering is our responsibility and shame upon our heads.
agreed
I’m a Mexican trans woman, I don’t know how comfortable that makes me in the U.S. in 2024. For now I have a job and and a home and since my transition around 2002, my civil rights have mostly been growing except for where Republicans have prevented Democrats from helping (I want to be clear I’m not pro Democrat, I just can’t see the group that wants to kill me as equivalent to the one who gave me a right to housing and employment).
In fact, much of my motivation for this conversation is because I feel if Trump wins my life will be in immediate danger, he’s made clear his intentions; under Biden it is not.
And what makes you think I find the current situation of mass suffering defensible? You understand the word “worse” right? You used a form of it in your reply so obviously. Worse means it’s bad now and will get MORE BAD. Trump WILL BE VERY MUCH WORSE FOR NEARLY EVERYONE. Unless you’re an accelerationist, Trump will make any goals you might have of making the world a better place much much more difficult and risky.
Those links you gave me, do you think suicides will go down under Trump? Do you think your rent will go down under Trump? You realize, if Biden doesn’t win we get Trump right? The alternative to Biden isn’t whatever your utopia is.
This election is like being on a game show, behind door number one is Republican who wants to kill me and others I care about. Behind the other door is someone giving me a a Spam sandwich so I don’t starve to death while they dine in luxury. Which should I choose? ** There is no third option.** You think revolution is needed or something? Work on that AND take a few minutes to vote for those who will make your work easier and reduce suffering for vulnerable populations.
And if you bring up genocide, you don’t think the guy who moved the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem is going to end the genocide do you? If so, hook me up with your dealer, that’s some crazy shit you’re smoking.
I don’t know about you but I’m effectively trapped in this society. If there was a realistic option to move to another where I wasn’t ashamed I might consider it. I have friends that left the country, it’s a lot of work and takes a lot of money if you don’t want to end up in a bad situation away from everyone that can help you. But I’m more of a fighter than a flighter, I’m going to stay and stand up for my fam.
He didn’t mention Trump or gave any indication that Trump is the solution. What are you on about in this comment??
Yeah, I’m a democratic socialist. I primaried and phone banked for Sanders twice. I don’t know where she’s getting off thinking I think making the current system go full fascist is the same as starting fresh and building an equitable economy and society with social supports.
Trump loves the current system and is a direct product of it, and his prominence is a direct result of the Reagan’s impact on the culture. He might as well be the current system’s, that I loathe, mascot.
He’s who we are, greed and greed worship incarnate, and that’s the problem.
He’s refuting my anti-tankie points and seems to think violent revolution is the answer. Every tankie I’ve ever talked to was very much against voting, and particularly for Biden. Trump is Biden’s likely opponent, Trump is who we get if Biden loses.
Violent revolution or collapse are the only ways things will begin to improve. Our framework is too hacked for self-repair to be possible, let alone likely. Rejecting Reagan would have been the last chance of an offramp to save the current framework.
I vote Democrat in the same way the Titanic crew kept the water pumps running, it bought a little time as they sank, it wasn’t a solution. It is a desperate play to slow the descent slightly. Biden And Trump both worship the market capitalists destroying us, to slightly different degrees. Wall Street is our society’s blight, DC is just a symptom of that.
“Tankies” don’t own revolution and never did. Russia sucks. Putin should be assassinated. Free Palestine and Ukraine.
I can respect someone who says violent revolution or collapse is the only way yet votes to protect the vulnerable however little it may matter, especially if they work toward ensuring what comes after isn’t even worse. I’m of the opinion that cultural evolution is an even more powerful force and that’s why so much energy is put into preventing unity of the people.
Accelerationist Xi and Putin supporting tankies though are delusional, I only argue with them because I feel they have empathy and sympathy and are mistaken on their methods.
That’s fair. I wish you well.
likewise
Because the people we oppose are already committing mass violence on people. Evil people do not respond to peace, they only respond to violence. The only way to end their violence is using violence to ensure they can’t do it.
I can understand that to some degree, I’m not a pacifist. But I am a realist, so I don’t think a few thousand Lemmy users and a few thousand Reddit users are going to have any success in a full on violent revolution against the most powerful forces the world has ever seen, one that actually ends capitalism. Talking that way alienates people, most people aren’t willing to die for communism, they don’t know what it is and we’re doing a poor job of educating them. They want frappacinos and our rulers know to provide bread and circuses, enough to prevent revolution.
You can’t change the way billions of people around the world think by starting a revolution, you can make things worse by starting factional wars or getting all the leftists wiped out leaving cowards. Evolution by natural selection (slow) and cultural change (fast) are the only juggernauts capable of the real change this planet needs to survive this era. You may not see culture changing, but I assure you changes are happening crazy fast, we need to direct this change, and we are. The internet is key to this change.
I"m of the opinion that there is a very small number of truly evil people, they are the rulers and their protectors (those willing to wear a uniform and/or carry a badge and kill innocents on order for pay or loyalty) and a large number of gullible idiots. If we want to win, we need to figure out how to deactivate this idiot army and block propaganda. The long-term goal needs to be to leave these psychopaths unprotected by the state, community self-defense will take care of the rest.
No, certainly random forum folk won’t. But unions certainly could, if we got them enough power. All the strongest people, with leverage over critical infrastructure. But in the meantime, before unions have enough power for that, I think it does basically just fall on random forum folk to get-together IRL and protest against these issues, violently where necessary.
Disco Elysium kind of plays with this idea