A few days ago I downvoted someone’s comment, and the next day I happened to notice every single comment I’ve ever made had at least one downvote. All from the person I dared to downvote the ONE time. I straight up asked why they did it, and they seem to think I’m an “obvious” troll account that “apparently just exist to downvote other people”. I assure you I’m no troll account, and ironically don’t really downvote all that often.
I know the topic of public downvotes has been discussed before, but I never used to care either way. Now I’m kinda leaning in the “I don’t like it” side. Honestly, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t feel a little offended, maybe even attacked. Also, there goes all my imaginary internet points. Lol
Has anyone else had something like this happen to them, or am I just unlucky?
While that’s definitely a notable downside, I think the upsides outweigh it.
For one, being able to see upvotes & downvotes seems to have made a lot of people a bit more thoughtful with handing them out. This obviously isn’t the case for everyone — there’s still a good bit of downvoting people for disagreeing with the hivemind — but I and others have observed that downvote quality is a lot better here on kbin.social, and I think that vote visibility is a big part of that.
It’s also just transparency on kbin.social’s part. If votes federate, anyone can set up an instance to view your votes or just go to one that shows them. Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there’s nothing stopping them. Kbin.social is being transparent about the fact that votes on the fediverse can be accessed by the public, and I have no issue with that.
EDITː Removed a stray asterisk
Kbin.social is being transparent about the fact that votes* on the fediverse can be accessed by the public
This is important. The kind of petty, persevering trolls that @billothekid2 is worried about are exactly the kind of people who’d be likely to look up who downvoted them.
Kbin just makes it clear to us that this info is out there. Anonymous voting isn’t possible in federated social media.
Also, even if they wanted to I don’t think voting could be made anonymous at this point, either. I’m not a programmer in any sense, but I imagine it would totally break federation. Total anonymity would probably need to be a feature from the start.
Kbin at least puts it out there so you know it’s not totally anonymous. Sometimes I wonder how many lemmy users are unaware of this because the software doesn’t make it apparent.
Actually, our downvotes don’t federate out, and we don’t get incoming downvotes either, so you could totally make them private within an instance since that information doesn’t leave the instance anyway.
Not advocating one way or the other, just pointing out that it technically could be an option.
Hmm… I’m no expert, and probably not even competent at these sort of matters, but the thing that popped to my mind was “something something encryption something something trust”. I wonder if this has a smart solution.
No. The whole point of Federated software is that things happen on one server, and by the very design of the system those things get shared out to other servers. “Things” could be anything from posts to comments to up/down votes.
The only way to have anonymous voting would be to make the up/down votes strictly local to a particular server, which kind of defeats the purpose of a federated system.
Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there’s nothing stopping them.
This is why I agree that it should be shown upfront. A lot of people won’t like it, but I think users should be somewhat aware that it’s all technically visible.
Someone is gonna make an instance that does exactly this at some point. It will be inevitable as the fediverse matures.
stop caring about votes like they mean anything.
I don’t. That’s why I called them imaginary internet points. Lol. My point was about the fact that you can see who downvotes you.
@billothekid2 this exchange raises another point. You and @snooggums downvoting each other here seem to be engaging in “downvote-to-disagree” with each other.
I don’t see nearly as much of this on kbin as I do on, say, lemmy.world and I’m sure it’s because of our more transparent voting system.
I’m personally not a fan because I think it’s vaguely hostile and discourages open discussion.
Same, generally speaking when I’m writing a comment in order to disagree with someone I want that other person’s comment to be more visible to other readers. That way they can read it, see my response, and realize how wrong the original comment was and how right I am. :) I save my downvotes for comments that are so wrong they’re not worth a response.
I’ll even sometimes downvote a comment, ponder for a moment, and then remove my downvote and write a response instead.
The way I see it, downvotes = “I wish this comment didn’t exist” and doing it to punish someone for having a discussion with us is weird, since social media is all about discussions, and exchanging disagreeing points of view is interesting.
FWIW, I usually downvote if the person is a dick. Often I also disagree with them, but not always. If you are dragging the conversation down (in some way other than having an unpopular opinion) you get a downvote.
Fair enough. I think my dick threshold is pretty high, they have to be spamming or griefing or something like that.
I am downvoting because complaining about downvotes while saying they don’t matter is hypocritical and not a discussion made in good faith. Just wanted to see if they voted in response, showing their hypocrisy.
If you didn’t care you wouldn’t have posted.
If he didn’t care he wouldn’t have downvoted you just now either
That’s hilarious. Another upside
Counterpoint: it makes it even more apparent when bigoted alt right trolls like AnotherAttorney post and we can see they’re the ones upvoting and boosting their own terrible posts, and ridicule them til they quit or switch sock puppets
This is an obvious downside. I’ve experienced a similar thing but being a lemmy user I don’t know who I pissed off. Which is for the best. It was a one off. Ignore it and chances are this one will be too.
Somewhat off topic, but I’m tired of people who can’t argue properly.
@billothekid2 I just thought of another aspect.
On reddit about 8 years ago there was a bunch of discussion of how people were running automated scripts to downvote everything by people they didn’t like or whatever.
And reddit had to build in a safeguard so those automated script downvotes no longer counted. Those kinds of shenannigans would be much easier to spot in kbin’s current system.
I don’t see an issue here.
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try to explain your downvotes, or, better yet, voice your disagreement and have a discussion without relying on downvotes to express yourself. Use your words.
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when you feel it necessary and that using your words isn’t working, upvote/boost everyone but the person in question. Realize downvotes don’t really do what you’d hoped and are a poor crutch and means of expression. Elevate what you do agree with. Worry less about what you don’t.
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just don’t care about internet points. As others have said and covered extensively.
Hopefully, what remains is that conversations are important. Having an outlet for undescribed/unformed/ambiguous disagreement/dissent really doesn’t add anything to anything for anyone. Making a point or saying something correct is more valuable than shooting down those you find to be incorrect. And, ultimately, it’s not just what you think that matters. The consensus of the group and the conversation that gets them there, the experience and the interchange and the community itself are all much more valuable than the destination of a single conversation.
Edit: (And, for the record, while I disagree with your assessment, I’ve boosted and upvoted your thread, because I think the conversations being had here are valuable and worth seeing by more people.)
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Didn’t you just see the upside too, though? You can see who’s downvoting all your comments and call them out on it. Someone could downvote stalk you on Reddit (quite sure that has happened to me before) and it would be invisible and unprovable.
Yeah, trolls really care about being “called out”. Trolls can’t stand negative attention, so be sure to tell lots of people who they are and what they did!
Assuming you’re being sarcastic and mean the opposite, this hasn’t been my experience, actually. Just like with @livus, above, I called out a downvote-stalker once who’d been following me around and when I described how I was seeing his downvote pattern he instantly vanished. In my experience the “downvote warriors” are a cowardly bunch, they love being able to throw punches without being seen to throw punches. Once you make it clear to them that everyone can see what they’re doing they crumple under scrutiny.
The trolls you’re talking about are the kind that love to get into an argument with you. That’s quite different.
@FaceDeer interesting, wonder if it was the same person!
The other thing that hasn’t bern mentioned yet is vote manipulation is easy to spot on kbin.
When reddit first migrated here I remember someone being called out for having 3 or 4 profiles upvote/downvote all the same things.
Okay. Yeah, I was being sarcastic, but now I see we had different kinds of trolls in mind. Thanks for taking the time to explain.
No problem. And I can imagine that there might be some out there who would indeed be gleeful about being called out for downvoting because they’re just that deep into the “raging asshole” state that any negative attention is giving them the dopamine hit they crave. But I suspect that kind of troll is going to be blatant enough that he’ll get blocked or banned by most places worth hanging out in anyway.
I probably shouldn’t admit it, but one of my favourite ways of dealing with a raging asshole on Reddit was to be impeccably polite to them until they blew their stack badly enough while trying to provoke me that I could report them. :) I’d only do that if they were clearly already unredeemable, though.
Agreed. I can see this being more harmful than helpful.
I’m calling you out, @BadWolf 😂
Slightly off-topic, but I don’t think downvotes should be a thing at all honestly. Silences minority opinions by lowering their visibility and discouraging further discussion even when they’re correct. People also tend to not respond to those comments/posts in good faith, as if the downvotes prove them wrong. Turns the place into an echo chamber.
Taking out downvotes would allow for less popular opinions to have higher visibility and discussion since the majority can’t just downvote it, just because they slightly disagree with it or are biased against it, and silence discussion.
People who do agree would also be able to show it through upvotes, and it wouldn’t be eaten up by the downvotes.
Spam, hateful and rule-breaking comments/posts would just be reported instead. As is the case for some Lemmy instances already.
if you take out the downvotes, the upvotes must go with it. but also, kbins algorithm isnt over-programmed and calculating, i see varying levels of upvoted and downvoted comments mixed together and i like it that way so everyone is included. on kbin, if youre downvoted, its usually been for good reason as far as ive seen, and ive also never had to go LOOKING for downvoted comments that are buried like on reddit. they are right there on kbin. the ‘algorithm’ is no algorithm. its honest
I don’t think that it’s off topic at all, in the contrary. If you analyse the situation described by the OP, the issue is not the fact that our actions are transparents, the issue is due to the consequence of downvoting a post and how this action made another person feel and how they acted on this feeling.
Downvoting is not a constructive tool and should be abolished. It’s not a matter of the users not using it the right way, it’s a matter of psychological behaviour.
We should design tools that help us to bring the best in us, not the worst. We are not here on a commercial platform who need to hook us with dopamine shot, and trigger us on engaging by frustrating us. We need to build things differently. Federating servers is great but not enough.
I think that an option to be able to remove the display of the downvote tool and downvote count should be available in the settings. I would like to abolish it all together but I’m not interested to impose this on other users, so bring me an opt out please.
what do you think @ernest? let’s change this paradigm and build another better tool?
Name and shame, otherwise your post here is as worthless as the troll who spent the time and effort to troll you.
It’s… It’s public info? Like that’s his point lol. You can go to his user profile, find a couple of downvoted posts, and see who he’s talking about.
Is this really an issue for people. Lol.
You’re asking this in a thread where someone describes exactly how it’s an issue for them.
