Months after some Israelis started to protest against aid lorries entering Gaza at the main Kerem Shalom crossing, the battle has moved to other key junctions, where rival groups of activists do their best to block or protect aid convoys.
Right-wing activists, including Jewish settlers living in the occupied West Bank, have uploaded dozens of videos of crowds, including some very young children, hurling food onto the ground and stamping on boxes of aid.
In one video, a group of jubilant protesters dance and celebrate on top of a looted lorry.
In another, one of the stranded lorries is ablaze.
In the West Bank, at least two drivers who were not carrying goods bound for Gaza were dragged from their cabs and beaten.
Other videos show Israeli vigilantes stopping lorries in Jerusalem and demanding that drivers show papers proving they are not transporting aid to Gaza. Their faces are uncovered and they appear to be acting with complete impunity.
Please don’t lump all Israelis together with a small group of extremists which are currently supported by our fascistic government.
This is no different to saying all Palestinians are bad and should be sanctioned because of Hamas.
I’m not. I’m saying that these extremists make the others look bad to the point that it’s difficult for non-absolutists such as myself to argue against collective punishment. Apologies if I was unclear.
Yeah it is. Whereas Palestinians are resisting (sometimes in less than optimal ways) a genocidal occupation force, these Israelis are safe and still trying to help that same force starve innocent civilians to death. That’s VERY different.
(about the last part, comparing extremists israelis and Gazans)
Dude that’s just bullshit. First, these Israelis absolutely have a reason to fight. They have kidnapped civilians held in captive under god knows what conditions.
Second, you’re comparing people who block aid trucks to people who raped and slaughtered families. Think about what type of person it takes to do either of these, then realize who you’re excusing.
Both extremists are despicable, but coloring Palestinian extremists as “resisting” (raping and abusing bodies) and Israelis as genocidal is plain hypocritical. Both extremists are genocidal, with one side being more barbaric. We should condemn both, and not make excuses for both.
But since you’re providing excuses for one side (“resisting”) I wanted to provide the excuse for the other side. Which tbh, is a better excuse, since it can actually possibly get them results (getting the kidnapped back is an option, exterminating all jews is less so).
Same goes for Israel and their hundreds if not thousands of baseless arrests of Palestinians who they then often torture. We never hear about them, though, since they don’t have a PR budget or indeed anything.
Nope, I didn’t compare those civilian Israeli people to the IDF.
All whataboutism aside, it have never said anything positive about Hamas and their terrorism. Palestinians ≠ Hamas.
You, on the other hand, are excusing the IDF, whose atrocities are just as barbaric as those of Hamas and who are an occupation force.
Again, I was talking about the favorite victims of the IDF, not Hamas
Why do you keep pivoting to the IDF?
Nope, the IDF and other parts of the Israeli government are by the official definition committing genocide. That’s not just an opinion or a matter under review, that’s a fact.
And again Palestinians ≠ Hamas
No. That’s not how genocide works. Saying “death to Israel” and then committing an enormous one day atrocity isn’t a genocide. Absolutely unforgivably barbaric, yes, but not genocide.
Not really, no. Both of the active sides are about equally barbaric. One is more in the wrong, though, because that one has all the power to stop the bloodshed. The one you consider less barbaric, in case you wonder.
That’s what I’m doing
Please take your own advice.
As I’ve pointed out many times i don’t, never have and never will consider terrorism legitimate resistance. So no, I’m not.
So it’s ok for you to be a hypocrite if you accuse me of hypocrisy first? 🙄
No, it’s not. The Israeli people care about the hostages, but Netanyahu and the IDF don’t. Their indiscriminate destruction is a greater danger to them than their captors and the IDF has murdered at least two of them already.
No. Only result they’re going for is to murder or expel as many Palestinians alive they can get away with and then take the territory for themselves. They’ve already started “resettling” Gaza.
Not one that Netanyahu and the IDF consider more important than murder and conquest.
That was always hateful rhetoric rather than a literal goal.
Extermination and displacement of all Palestinians, though? THAT’S something that can and likely WILL happen if nobody stops the genocidal apartheid regime.
Lots to reply here so I’ll just focus on some points I want to stress
First, lumping the IDF with the Israeli government is very wrong, and shows you have no real idea of how that military works. It’s like blaming the german army of genocide in WW2 instead of the nazi regime. The IDF really do their best to hurt as few civilians they can, and only target threatening targets in Gaza. The IDF is not commiting genocide, according to the definition, by the simple fact that it isn’t targeting genocidal goals. Yes, it dislocates and even kills civillians, but none are intentional or targeted, and they literally give up the element of surprise (something which 100% costs them military lives) in order to evacuate civilians before an invasion/bombing. As an army, it’s outstandingly humane.
Another point about the IDF, with regards to barbarism. You should really look at what Hamas did on oct.7, and try to compare it to how the IDF works. Comparing the two in terms of barbarism is really nuts.
The Israeli government tho on the other hand, are pretty much just as you say. If you allowed Ben Gvir to do as he pleases, we’d have a legit genocide of 2 million dead Gazans. The difference is that Israel has a functioning court of law (which Netanyahu a.k.a putin2.0 tried to weaken), and an actual opposition in their Parliament, which prevents them from acting on those genocidal plans (not 100% works tho, as we’ve seen in the start of the war where no aid trucks arrived at Gaza)
Oh and about the kidnapped vs palestinians arrests, don’t compare people who commit (or try to commit) terrorism to people who simply lived in a Kibutz/partied in the Nova.
Finally, Hamas is completely genocidal. Their lack of means of acting on that will, doesn’t make them less genocidal. Their “exterminate all jews” rhetoric is definitely a literal goal, considering the act of oct.7, which the main plan was sieging cities/Kibbutzim and killing/kidnapping their residence. It wasn’t just “a hateful rhetoric” it was a well planned extermination of the civilians, which sadly worked brilliantly.
The IDF really do their best to hurt as few civilians they can, and only target threatening targets in Gaza.
Patently false. They target civilian infrastructure, aid workers, journalists and Healthcare workers.
Another flat out lie, see above.
AKA forced relocation, which is another war crime. Think Trail of Tears. Besides, they even bomb “safe zones” that they told Palestinians to go to!
Your biggest lie yet.
I have. October 7th wad absolutely incredibly monstrous. The reply from the IDF and the rest of the Israeli apartheid regime has been even worse.
Yes, but not in the way you think.
Not when it comes to crimes of the occupation. Any Israeli person committing war crimes are either not reprimanded at all or get off with a slap on the wrist. That’s why the ICJ and the ICC find it necessary to interfere: because there’s no justice form Israeli courts and Palestinians are not even allowed to HAVE their own Justice system.
Fun fact: not everyone who’s arrested is guilty of terrorism or attempted terrorism. Far from it. In fact, the vast majority of Palestinian prisoners are guilty of dissent or knowing someone who might know someone or ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
That’s not how genocide works. Genocide is a concerted pattern of actions, not a wish.
That doesn’t follow at all. Especially since many of the victims weren’t even Jewish.
Besides, a terrorist attack, monstrous as it is, is not the same thing as a genocide. It’s not even in the same category.
Basically your whole pov is based on the fact that you think the IDF are targeting civilians. Since you’re clearly set in that opinion, I won’t further that point. Just food for thought: if they really do target civilians… Do you think the numbers would truly be 1:2 Hamas:civilian? If so, then sure. Whatever.
Oh and I’d love a source on that “vast majority of Palestinian prisoners are innocents” claim, since that sounds pretty far fetched, even considering the borderline alt-right current Israeli government.
And I really wish to understand your logic on Hamas not being genocidal… Is firing rockets almost every year towards civilian areas not a “concrete pattern of action”? Also, does genocide must happen towards a religion? What does the victim’s jewishness have anything to do with it?
Hamas wants to exterminate all Israelis. They keep saying it, and before oct.7 everyone thought (like you) that they’re all bark no bite, just saying stuff. That proved to be false. They bite, and they mean what they say. They proved it all too well, and I really don’t see how you fail to see their very really intent to kill all Israelis.
The only thing keeping Israelis from death by Hamas is the IDF. They’d all be dead or relocated (probably dead if we trust their rhetoric, which I do, after seeing their barbarism).
And again, if you truly think the IDF is more barbaric than Hamas, I just have no words. You either haven’t seen the videos hamas posted themselves, or are blinded by hate.
Bombing houses (after evacuation notices, which you call genocidal - I call humane. Do you wish they bombed it without warning in advance?) is soooooo much less barbaric than abusing dead bodies and burning families with their houses (knowingly, and shooting/kidnapping them when they leave).
Fixed it for you. It’s not something I think. It’s not in question. It’s established fact.
Again, not an opinion. They’ve said so themselves.
Nope, but that ratio is the low end of the IDF PR division estimate. The real ratio is closer to 1:4
…you know what? As I read on, you’re not giving me anything except more lies and distortions regurgitated from AIPAC and other PR outlets for the Israeli apartheid regime. That and signs of you simply not understanding or not wanting to.
So since I won’t be able to help you undrink the kool-aid, I’m gonna atop wasting time and effort on you. Have the day you deserve.
Ah yes, well established fact… By who exactly? By kids at universities thousands of kilometers away?
And even if we take your (baseless) estimate of 1:4 ratio, that’s still nowhere close to call it a targeted attack on civilians. Compare it to other urban warfare, and see for yourself, they don’t kill enough civilians to justify any of your claims.
Look at the numbers, and actually base your own opinion, rather than repeating words that people who are very not objective keep repeating. And differentiate between the IDF and the Israeli government. Since they’re vastly different both in world-view (one being extremely corrupt right wing) and in actions done. The racist israeli government expands settlements (and almost sparked a mini civil war between jews and arabs, ahem ahem Ben Gvir), while the IDF manages to supply aid trucks into Gaza, and evacuate Gazans from their (tunnel holes and weapon having) homes.
Don’t worry about it.
Hamas invaded areas which aren’t considered occupied, and kidnapped, killed and raped innocent people. I don’t care if they call this “resistance”, it’s terrorism.
I disagree with your view of the IDF, but even if I did agree, then Hamas and the IDF would be fairly equivalent in this case (except for the fact that the IDF has more firepower).
We were specifically talking about NON-Hamas Palestinians, though, not that terrorist group.
It’s not “my view”. It’s the facts of the matter as per international law.
No. Just no. One is one of the most advanced and well-funded militaries in the history of the world and the other is a terrorist group usually firing unguided rockets. While both are despicable, there’s absolutely no equivalence.
Especially since the IDF isn’t fighting Hamas. They’re eradicating the civilian population using Hamas as an excuse.
I’m saying unaffiliated Palestinians who support Hamas are supporting terrorism, not resistance.
Considering the fact that multiple international courts are currently dealing with this issue, it’s not as obvious as you present it.
Are you claiming Hamas was fighting the IDF on the 7th of October? It is well known in Israel that the reason so many civilians were hurt that day was that there was a lackluster response from the IDF, so civilians had to fight terrorists themselves.
Also, Israel evacuated 800,000 people from Rafah before entering, why do that if they just wanted them to die?
Even in the current government the voices calling for resettlement of Gaza are an unpopular minority.
You can claim the IDF has no regard for human life, so they don’t care if they kill innocent Gazans (I would disagree, but whatever). But to claim that they try to eradicate them is crazy.
Oh, you’re one of those false equivalence genocide - deniers that think all resistance is Hamas, only 100% eradication is genocide and the war crime of forced relocation is a mercy?
Forget it, then. Have the day you deserve.
That’s not what I believe or tried to say.
The IDF absolutely does not care if it kills innocent civilians. You do not establish invisible “kill zones” in a civilain occupied area and indiscriminately fire on men, women and children if you care about human life. These zones are so ubiquitous and so ill policed that the IDF killed 3 jewish hostages that escaped captivity, hostages that striped themselves shirtless, called out in hebrew, waved white flags, had large signs saying they were escaped hostages, and still the IDF ran them down like dogs to kill because they violated a invisible “kill zone” boundary.
After months of intense and very public pressure and a first in decades withholding of weapons from the US, and after very publicly murdering humanitarian aid workers that cost Israel a great deal of international support for this war. Even then they barely setup any services like tents, water or sanitation for those 800k forced refuges moved into a “expanded humanitarian area,” i.e concentration camp, all while your ministers like Ben Gvir call for the literal genocide of the Palestinian people to continue.
These are not the actions of a country that cares for civilain life.
Forgive but where are the Israelis protesting the genocide? I only see them supporting the IDF and screaming anti-semites at people that disagree with them.
We’ve had many protests against this government since the war began. And a lot of people in Israel are very angry at the IDF since they are also responsible.
Edit: Btw, where are all the Gazans protesting what Hamas did on the 7th of October?
Maybe because they’re busy trying not to die of hunger and avoiding the genocide coming for them.
Where are all the Palestinians outside Gaza protesting this then?
What do you think is a higher priority for them right now?
This is typical “but do you condemn Hamas?” bullshit. Most Palestinians in this world do not support Hamas. But Hamas are not the ones murdering their fellow countrypeople right now.
Just like for Israelis a much higher priority is pritesting the fact that our government is nottaking the necessary steps to return hostages home.
I didn’t try to say Palestinians should protest against Hamas, I was comparing it to Israelis not protesting against the war.
That is suggesting that the lives of those hostages is more valuable than the lives of the thousands of innocent Palestinians who have been slaughtered and that is extremely morally dubious as a position.
No, they are protesting their government for not doing what a government should do - protect its citizens.
Do not assume those protesters want Gazans to die, many in Israel believe (including me) that the current state of the war is hurting the chances of returning hostages alive. Prominent figures have called for ceasefires even when the deals presented by the Hamas were heavily skewed against Israeli interests.
Unfortunately our politicians are a bunch of genocidal fascists, so these protests and calls don’t matter anyway.
@That edit was your attempt at some dark humour?
If Gazans stand in a big group anywhere without permission from the occupiers, they can get bombed and sniped and chased with drones.
The majority are internally displaced and homeless. A significant number are now starving to death. We know from doctors - before the IDF rounded them up and imprisoned them in Sde Teiman (Israel’s version of Abu Ghraib torture detention) - the number of burn injuries, amputations, etc civilians are facing.
And you dare to sit there and compare these to the uninjured, well fed citizens of a richer nation that all have their own homes to sit in and organize their protests about how they want their hostages back?
Palestinians want their hostages back too. The thousands of children whose parents have been killed and vice versa want their loved ones back too.They are HUMAN BEINGS just like you. If Israel had treated them as humans and observed international law instead of turning into a rogue genocidal state the civilians of Palestine may have had the same chance for expression that you do yourself.
Try for some compassion.
Why didn’t they protest Hamas before the war? It’s not like Hamas suddenly became a terrorist organization on the 7th of October.
They did protest Hamas before the war. I can’t tell if you’re lying on purpose or just ignorant about Gaza.
Times of Israel, August 2023:
Here’s Human Rights Watch in 2019 reporting on the violent way Hamas suppressed protestors with beatings and arrests:
Immediately after Hamas was elected in 2006 there were protests and violent reprisals. Surely you should know this.
I was talking about protests against violent acts against Jews (since the first comment in this chain about protests was specifically asking where are the Israelis protesting the genocide).
However, I’ve thought about it some more and it’s unreasonable of me to assume those protesters don’t care about Hamas’ terrorism, just like I think it’s unreasonable to assume Israelis protesting the government don’t care about what’s happening to Gazans.
Most protesters against bibi and the lack of results of retrieving hostage but they don’t give a damn about palestine innocent civilians. I’m not saying that there is nobody really protedting about the genocide though.
The main subject of the protests is returning the hostages (which is obvious, protecting the lives of citizens is the main responsibility of a nation), but that doesn’t mean that’s all people protest about there.
I don’t see anything saying all Israelis are bad. Seems to me you’re reading more into it that what is there.
Yeah you’re right, he didn’t say all Israelis are bad. But he did insinuate that enough are that it makes sense to sanction all of them, which I take issue with.
No they didn’t. You read something that wasn’t there 'cause your confirmation bias kicked in.
Do better.
Yeah you’re probably right, I won’t deny I’m biased on this topic.
The white South Africans did not starve to death when we boycotted them over Apartheid. The Israeli people can stand a few sanctions over their democratic choice to allow openly genocidal actions.
Personally the first sanction I would like to see against Israel is a complete embargo on buying or selling any weapons, armaments, or other military equipment. This would not hurt the innocent but it would hurt arms dealers and genocidaires alike.
What do you think will happen if Israel starts running out of military equipment? We are surrounded by hostile neighbours.
Then Israel will have a strong incentive to stop the Gaza Genocide and trigger the end of the embargo long before it runs out of military equipment.
That’s how sanctions work.
I disagree that Israel is comitting Genocide though, and I’m not the only one. Who will decide when the sanctions will end?
Also, the sanctions against Russia don’t work. Sanctions agajnst Iraq led to millions of innocent civilians dying. Iran is still advancing their nuclear program. Kim Jong Un is still in power.
Historically, that’s rarely been the case.
Israel has plenty of their own homegrown defense industry, I do not foresee them running out of armaments any time soon, despite what your politicians may say.
Where do you think Israel gets the materials to actually produce their weapons?
Also, I’m not aware of any Israeli politician that claimed this (there was one time recently where a bunch of headlines claimed Bibi said “we will fight with our fingernails”, but it was taken out of context).
Israel has had since its invention plenty of time to make good relations with its neighbors. It doesn’t though, it just sticks to stealing land and genocide, the founding principles of the country. If that catches up to them, well, they brought it on to themselves. Maybe they should try being better neighbors.
You seem to know very little about Israel’s history (considering we made peace with both Jordan and Egypt, which are two countries which attacked us first).
Maybe you should try reading a bit of history before writing nonsense
Do you also disagree with the sanctions on Russia?
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Yeah
Figured, colonizers think alike
Have the sanctions against Russia stopped the war? Or did they just harm Russian citizens for a while (while Putin is largely unaffected), while also causing huge economic issues for many countries which used to do business with Russia?
Russia is a huge country with many natural resources and still has good relations with many other countries; sanctions against it could never work.
I don’t support the war in Ukraine, btw.
Isn’t a blockade some kind of sanctions?
You voted for this shit, you all are complicit.
I hate israel so fucking much. But it’s important to note that it’s really not all of them. Some of them are good people too, and not realizing this can lead to bad trains of thought. The same kinds that lead to discrimination of my people.
Free palestine. That includes Jews.
Tell that to people who hate Russians, even when everyone knows that there’s no democracy in Russia.
Only 34% of Israelis voted for this government in the last election.
70.63% of Israelis voted in the last election (and it’s worth noting that around 85% of ultra orthodox Jews in Israel voted).
The vote was almost a tie between the current coalition parties and the current opposition parties (it didn’t end up being a tie due to dumb disagreements between two small left-wing parties, which led to one not passing the threshold at all this time around).
Likud got 23.41% of the votes. Yesh Atid (Yair Lapid’s party) got 17.79%. 10.84% went to Religious Zionism (Ben Gvir and Smotrich’s party). 9.08% went to Ganz’s party. 8.25% went to the Sephardic ultra orthodox party, 5.88% went to the Ashkenazi one. 4.48% went to Yisrael Beiteinu (Liberman’s party). The United Arab List got 4.07%. Hadash (far left party) got 3.75% of the vote. Labor got 3.69%. Merez (a left wing party) and Balad (a secular Palestinian party) were only a few thousand votes from passing the threshold, getting 3.16% and 2.91% of the votes, respectively.
Often when it seems one of Merez or Labor won’t pass, they join forces (also true for other small similar parties). This time around they didn’t, and Bibi used that chance to create a horrendous coalition which most Israelis aren’t happy with, which isn’t surprising when you consider that it got only 48.38% of the total vote. When you consider that only ~70% actually voted, you get that the actual percentage of Israelis which voted for this coalition is around 34%.
Our political system is a mess, I know.
Official source (in Hebrew though): https://votes25.bechirot.gov.il
Edit: Btw, Gazans voted for Hamas, too.
Interesting point. Far fewer Gazans voted for Hamas compared to the number of Israelis who voted for the current genocidal government of Israel.
Let’s see… the median age in Gaza on Oct 7 was 18. The last election in Gaza was in 2006. That means half the people now in Gaza weren’t even born yet.
Of the 50% who were alive then, only around half were of voting age in 2006. Therefore 25% of the current population were eligible to vote in 2006.
According to Wikipedia, turnout in Gaza was around 74%. 74% of 25% = 18.5% In other words, just 18.5% of present day Gazans actually voted at all in the last election.
In that election Hamas won 46.5% of the vote, winning in North Gaza, losing in places like Rafah.
So the number of Gazans who actually voted for Hamas is probably somewhere around 10% and mathematically can’t be above 18.5%.
If you don’t support sanctions against Israel on the grounds that not everyone voted for this then you shouldn’t support Israel’s collective punishment of Palestinians either.
I don’t support “collective punishment” against anyone, ever… The top comment in this thread is mine, where I literally wrote Bibi allied with terrorists. How did you reach the conclusion that I agree with how the war is being handled?
I’m glad that you don’t support collective punishment of Palestinians.
That’s the common ground between you and me. Where we disagree is in what steps to take to stop it. I’m so old that I boycotted Apartheid and later had the very moving experience of being thanked for my country doing that by people who had lived through it.
From some of your comments in here I think you have trouble seeing the enormity of what is happening to your fellow human beings in Gaza right now. In recent years sanctions have been used to halt an attempted genocide in Ethiopia and to weaken the power of the genocidaires in Myanmar. It’s actually usually only when superpowers (China, USA) stand in our way that they become less effective.
You’re likely right to some extent, but do consider that not all of what you hear happening in Gaza is actually true.
In contrast to probably 99% of Lemmy, I actually served in the IDF, I even have friends who are currently in Gaza. I know a lot of reports by the “Gaza Health Ministry” (Hamas) are straight up bullshit, I know for a fact that UNRWA has been infiltrated by terrorists (even if people around the world find this hard to believe).
I also highly suspect that either the IDF or the government has decided to be much less careful in this war (when it comes to making sure innocents are safe), which I think is terrible.
But I also don’t see a way forward for the state of Israel without the destruction of Hamas, because otherwise we will just repeat this in a few years, and I don’t think Hamas will stop attacking us even if we are sanctioned by most of the world (I also fear that in such a scenario, a government might rise to power in Israel which is much more extreme than even now).
The only real solution that doesn’t involve genocide is ensuring that Palestinians are happy, healthy, and have the opportunity to thrive. Terrorist groups like Hamas don’t just poof into existence. It takes a mix of desperation, grief, and hopelessness (and sometimes megalomania) to reach that point. Groups like that can’t be defeated or destroyed with bombs and missiles. Inflicting more pain and suffering creates more desperate, hopeless people who don’t feel like they have anything to live for or chance at living a good life. If the IDF kills every member of Hamas in this war, another group will rise because of all of the mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, friends, and family that have lost their lives as “collateral damage”.
If you want to halt Hamas and similar groups, your government needs to stop doing the recruiting efforts for them. Hell, with time, effort, and prosecuting those who perpetuate the violence, the Palestinian people could be allies.
I agree with you, but the issue is groups like Hamas don’t just poof out of existence either; and Hamas has shown they can’t be trusted to act in good faith (before Hamas’ surprise attack, there was actually a fairly long period where it seemed in Israel that Hamas’ is appeased by various benefits given to Hamas and Gazans, like giving some permission to work in Israel, and allowing money from Qatar to enter the strip. Israeli defense in turn moved troops away from Gaza and lowered the combat readiness of the surrounding areas, which led to the disaster on the 7th of October).
And unfortunately, I don’t see Hamas allowing a more reasonable group to from in Gaza while they’re still in power.
I hope I’ll be alive to see this
Thanks for your comment. Fwiw I get most of my information from credible NGOs, and even if UNRWA was magically 100% terrorists (implausible. I’ve met an Israeli woman who worked as a humanitarian in Gaza and I think she had a pretty good idea of that space) I wouldn’t feel any differently about the Gaza Genocide. Nothing excuses it.
Similarly, preventing civilians losing their lives will always take precedence over preventing civilians losing their jobs.
I’m from a former colony myself, and history has taught that the only ways Israel can avoid being attacked by the people it has dispossessed would be if it either:
stops colonizing/settling/occupying/blockading and makes reparations or
genocides and displaces the population to a tiny fraction.
It’s disappointing that in this day and age most Israeli citizens prefer either option 2 or else the status quo of ongoing occupation and violence, but it’s not that unusual.
Personally, I think Israel is highly unlikely to turn back from genocide now. The only hope is for international intervention.
Gazans voted for Hamas 18 years ago. The average gazan has never voted in their lives
Correct, I’m not arguing this fact. I replied to someone who made a ridiculous claim that all Israelis are complicit, because we voted for this government, I was just trying to highlight that this is unreasonable in my edit, but it wasn’t very clear.