Fine. I will ignore the snarky elements of this message and simply ask you
If you want to add something of value to this discussion inform me on what Harris would have actually done to help Ukraine or give them anything substantively different than what Trump is offering.
Fine. I will ignore the blatant attempt to redirect the conversation ignoring everything I said, and simply ask you.
How are you trying to get away with saying that Ukraine can’t recapture any territory with the West’s help, when they did exactly that in 2022? Why are you ignoring Trump actively trying to sabotage Ukraine aid and risk the semi-stalemate turning into an outright loss, which is a pretty fuckin’ salient difference and what he got impeached for? And also, presumably, what he is teeing up to do again by offering unacceptable peace terms to Ukraine right now? Whose fault is it, solely and completely, that the Budapest Memorandum didn’t assure Ukraine’s security in this instance?
How are you trying to get away with saying that Ukraine can’t recapture any territory with the West’s help
This was two years ago, I will also make clear I’m not opposed to them taking back the territory, it just doesn’t seem like it’s actually gonna happen on any timeframe, one year from now, two years from now, ten years from now. You can feel free to link me sources if you disagree with me saying this.
Why are you ignoring Trump actively trying to sabotage Ukraine aid and risk the semi-stalemate turning into an outright loss, which is a pretty fuckin’ salient difference and what he got impeached for?
He signed off on giving them weapons, he’s not sabotoging them that hard. I don’t really see any compelling evidence that this “semi-stalemate” would change any time soon even if Biden was the president for the next 20 years, again you can feel free to link sources if you disagree with me saying this.
which is a pretty fuckin’ salient difference
Maybe if you expect things to change from this “semi-stalemate” I just don’t see why it would change from this.
And also, presumably, what he is teeing up to do again by offering unacceptable peace terms to Ukraine right now?
Who is saying these terms are unacceptable Zelensky? I have not seen him say this in those terms. I’m not saying Ukraine should take a deal they find unacceptable, they should do whatever is in their interest.
Whose fault is it, solely and completely, that the Budapest Memorandum didn’t assure Ukraine’s security in this instance?
I put the onus on the west for not enforcing it, otherwise why even offer this assurance, if they are not gonna actually follow through and stop Crimea being taken, Russia obviously also broke the deal, but if the deal is if one side will stop the other side if the other side breaks the deal and the other side breaks the deal and the one side says sorry we’re not gonna do what is required to stop Crimea being taken, the deal was just vapor to begin with.
So it doesn’t count anymore, two years is way too long from today.
doesn’t seem like it’s actually gonna happen on any timeframe, one year from now, two years from now, ten years from now
So it’s certainly assured what will happen ten years from now, based on what’s happening today.
Got it. Makes perfect sense, I’m following so far.
You can feel free to link me sources if you disagree with me saying this.
You want me to give you a citation for what’s going to happen ten years from now? Actually, no. You’re telling me what’s going to happen ten years from now, and demanding a citation otherwise, if I disagree.
Who is saying these terms are unacceptable Zelensky?
Zelensky has said he wouldn’t give up land before. That was a little while ago, and things can change. I doubt he would want to say anything about the peace agreement before it’s negotiated. He has offered to swap land, Kursk for the occupied Ukrainian territories.
Mostly, what I mean by saying that is that I think it’s unacceptable, for reasons pretty similar to the posted meme. I think that it’s likely that the offer on the table for Ukraine is “accept Russia’s terms, or no more aid” and they’ll have to make a nasty choice between those alternatives. How they feel or what they will do, I don’t know. But I’m fairly well convinced that those are the options they’ll be choosing between, and that Harris wouldn’t have done that. Can you give me a citation otherwise?
if the deal is if one side will stop the other side if the other side breaks the deal
Russia agrees not to invade, then invades, and you put the onus on the West? I already pointed out that the “one side will stop the other side” is nowhere in the memorandum. I don’t know why you are persistently pretending it is, or ignoring me pointing out that it isn’t.
So it doesn’t count anymore, two years is way too long from today.
How many years until it counts
You want me to give you a citation for what’s going to happen ten years from now?
I was clearly asking you for sources that predict change to happen, not to say what is going to happen in the future. You are just being obtuse.
How they feel or what they will do, I don’t know. But I’m fairly well convinced that those are the options they’ll be choosing between, and that Harris wouldn’t have done that. Can you give me a citation otherwise?
I think Harris would keep on doing exactly what Biden was doing, I never implied she wouldn’t, I just don’t think what Biden was doing past for the past few years has amounted to much.
Russia agrees not to invade, then invades, and you put the onus on the West? I already pointed out that the “one side will stop the other side” is nowhere in the memorandum. I don’t know why you are persistently pretending it is, or ignoring me pointing out that it isn’t.
Yes, why even pressure Ukraine and Kazakhstan to disarm if they weren’t going to do anything if Russia decided to reneg. There was no reason to pressure them to disarm then if it wasn’t implied they would provide security if Russia renegged. It’s the worst deal of all time if that was the case.
By arguments and questions do you mean their meta commentary on what I was saying. Because there is nothing to respond to there. What should I respond to someone telling me I am using rhetorical techniques to obscure what I am actually saying. They should have responded directly to what I was saying.
I made sure to go through your arguments point by point, and the only part you responded to initially was my meta-commentary at the end, after I was done with all my arguments and questions directly responding to what you were saying.
Dude… bravo, man, for making the effort, I guess. This is actually pretty impressive.
snark
All the blue is Ukraine’s lost territory they got back with the West’s help. There’s also Kursk.
I was not implying it did not, but I don’t see compelling evidence they will get more of it back any time soon militarily Crimea or Donbass.
Did Western countries promise them security? That’s the whole controversy about them joining NATO. For some reason, it is a globe-spanning crisis for Russia if NATO does offer them security, were they to be invaded, instead of just no-strings-attached weapons and a hearty pat on the back for good luck. Wonder why that’s a big issue.
I feel like this phrasing is, maybe, an incredibly artful dodge, inserted into the middle of talking about the Budapest Memorandum to make it sound like any part whatsoever of the betrayal of that agreement came from any source other than Russia, Russia, Russia. Maybe I’m reading too much in, though.
Snark and they were promised security for giving up their nukes as you detail, that is not “the whole controversy about them joining NATO” multiple NATO members would almost definitely veto them joining even if most of the other countries were okay with it, and no country is debating kicking out the countries that would veto Ukraine, so it’s a non starter now.
Probably true. They’re working on it. Doesn’t that kind of thing bother you? Wouldn’t it be better to give them conventional assistance to the extent they actually need, and allow them to counterattack without all this nail-biting about how it would be ever so rude and we don’t really care to that extent about dead Ukrainian soldiers and civilians? So they can win the fucking war and we can all go back to our lives?
I was simply referring to the past, I’m not personally advocating that assistance should be halted. I think if the US is unwilling to do more than send weapons a peace deal should be priotized because I don’t think this “semi-stale-mate” is going to change and I think people dying is a bad thing that should stop. Especially when it isn’t accomplishing anything meaningful.
I saved this one for last. I’m going to just sit and ponder at it, in silent contemplation.
Like I say, it’s pretty impressive. You’ve combined true statements that are sort of in the neighborhood of what you’re trying to prove, unrelated assertions, and absolute bald-faced earnest fabrications, into a pretty passable imitation of something that makes sense.
snark
There you go. If you wanted a better response, maybe stop being so fucking snarky and smarmy.
Fine. I will ignore the snarky elements of this message and simply ask you
If you want to add something of value to this discussion inform me on what Harris would have actually done to help Ukraine or give them anything substantively different than what Trump is offering.
Fine. I will ignore the blatant attempt to redirect the conversation ignoring everything I said, and simply ask you.
How are you trying to get away with saying that Ukraine can’t recapture any territory with the West’s help, when they did exactly that in 2022? Why are you ignoring Trump actively trying to sabotage Ukraine aid and risk the semi-stalemate turning into an outright loss, which is a pretty fuckin’ salient difference and what he got impeached for? And also, presumably, what he is teeing up to do again by offering unacceptable peace terms to Ukraine right now? Whose fault is it, solely and completely, that the Budapest Memorandum didn’t assure Ukraine’s security in this instance?
This was two years ago, I will also make clear I’m not opposed to them taking back the territory, it just doesn’t seem like it’s actually gonna happen on any timeframe, one year from now, two years from now, ten years from now. You can feel free to link me sources if you disagree with me saying this.
He signed off on giving them weapons, he’s not sabotoging them that hard. I don’t really see any compelling evidence that this “semi-stalemate” would change any time soon even if Biden was the president for the next 20 years, again you can feel free to link sources if you disagree with me saying this.
Maybe if you expect things to change from this “semi-stalemate” I just don’t see why it would change from this.
Who is saying these terms are unacceptable Zelensky? I have not seen him say this in those terms. I’m not saying Ukraine should take a deal they find unacceptable, they should do whatever is in their interest.
I put the onus on the west for not enforcing it, otherwise why even offer this assurance, if they are not gonna actually follow through and stop Crimea being taken, Russia obviously also broke the deal, but if the deal is if one side will stop the other side if the other side breaks the deal and the other side breaks the deal and the one side says sorry we’re not gonna do what is required to stop Crimea being taken, the deal was just vapor to begin with.
So it doesn’t count anymore, two years is way too long from today.
So it’s certainly assured what will happen ten years from now, based on what’s happening today.
Got it. Makes perfect sense, I’m following so far.
You want me to give you a citation for what’s going to happen ten years from now? Actually, no. You’re telling me what’s going to happen ten years from now, and demanding a citation otherwise, if I disagree.
Zelensky has said he wouldn’t give up land before. That was a little while ago, and things can change. I doubt he would want to say anything about the peace agreement before it’s negotiated. He has offered to swap land, Kursk for the occupied Ukrainian territories.
Mostly, what I mean by saying that is that I think it’s unacceptable, for reasons pretty similar to the posted meme. I think that it’s likely that the offer on the table for Ukraine is “accept Russia’s terms, or no more aid” and they’ll have to make a nasty choice between those alternatives. How they feel or what they will do, I don’t know. But I’m fairly well convinced that those are the options they’ll be choosing between, and that Harris wouldn’t have done that. Can you give me a citation otherwise?
Russia agrees not to invade, then invades, and you put the onus on the West? I already pointed out that the “one side will stop the other side” is nowhere in the memorandum. I don’t know why you are persistently pretending it is, or ignoring me pointing out that it isn’t.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#Content
How many years until it counts
I was clearly asking you for sources that predict change to happen, not to say what is going to happen in the future. You are just being obtuse.
I think Harris would keep on doing exactly what Biden was doing, I never implied she wouldn’t, I just don’t think what Biden was doing past for the past few years has amounted to much.
Yes, why even pressure Ukraine and Kazakhstan to disarm if they weren’t going to do anything if Russia decided to reneg. There was no reason to pressure them to disarm then if it wasn’t implied they would provide security if Russia renegged. It’s the worst deal of all time if that was the case.
Well to be fair, you still ignored all their other arguments and questions. Why don’t you respond to those?
By arguments and questions do you mean their meta commentary on what I was saying. Because there is nothing to respond to there. What should I respond to someone telling me I am using rhetorical techniques to obscure what I am actually saying. They should have responded directly to what I was saying.
I made sure to go through your arguments point by point, and the only part you responded to initially was my meta-commentary at the end, after I was done with all my arguments and questions directly responding to what you were saying.
snark
I was not implying it did not, but I don’t see compelling evidence they will get more of it back any time soon militarily Crimea or Donbass.
Snark and they were promised security for giving up their nukes as you detail, that is not “the whole controversy about them joining NATO” multiple NATO members would almost definitely veto them joining even if most of the other countries were okay with it, and no country is debating kicking out the countries that would veto Ukraine, so it’s a non starter now.
I was simply referring to the past, I’m not personally advocating that assistance should be halted. I think if the US is unwilling to do more than send weapons a peace deal should be priotized because I don’t think this “semi-stale-mate” is going to change and I think people dying is a bad thing that should stop. Especially when it isn’t accomplishing anything meaningful.
snark
There you go. If you wanted a better response, maybe stop being so fucking snarky and smarmy.