Why? Is your belief that progressives donāt show up based on anything but establishment talking points? But sure, Iāll do some work for you. See this Pew study.
Whoās āweā and what makes you so confident that you know how to reach āthese peopleā?
Which indicates that these voters wanted someone furthest right.
Or, maybe the political universe canāt be captured in a single dimension. Most of the American public (barely) pays attention to politics for 3-4 months every 4 years. They arenāt exactly policy wonks. The dominant measure today is populist vs establishment. People donāt know what they believe, but they do know that neither party establishment gives two shits about them. They wanted a disruptor, and astoundingly they managed to figure out which candidate that was. Not that Trump will do shit for them, but they will learn that (again) soon enough.
Meanwhile progressives claim the opposite is true: that democrats need to go further left.
Do you know where left and right come from? It was the French parliament after the revolution. The left stood with the people, and the right stood with royalty. Democrats need to stand with the people. As I said above, left vs right political theory isnāt something that most voters (or politicians if weāre being honest) give a shit about. But, with growing inequality and corporate overreach, people do want politicians taking their sides. Trump had more leftist rhetoric than the Democrats.
To not support democrats is to support republicans.
Supporting Democrats and supporting the Democratic Establishment are two different things. I donāt give a shit about red vs blue, but I know that one party is more assailable than the other, so thatās where I look to make change for a better world.
Why? Is your belief that progressives donāt show up based on anything but establishment talking points? But sure, Iāll do some work for you. See this Pew study.
Nope, itās based on the progressive talking point that democrats lost because Harris wasnāt far enough left. Youāre not doing work for me. I didnāt make the claim. If you canāt be bothered to back up your own claims then they arenāt worth anything.
Progressives, this, and this.
Maybe Iām missing something but I donāt see any source for that map. How did they get the numbers? What are the numbers? It just looks like someone colored a bunch of land and put some names on it. Not to mention itās a Reddit post.
Youāre confident that you know how to reach people that wonāt vote democrat because of a town hall of Bernie? I must be missing something.
Um, get votes? I thought that was pretty obvious.
Iām not going to debate based on assumptions. Use your words.
Or, maybe the political universe canāt be captured in a single dimension.
Voters chose the candidate furthest to the right, it doesnāt get any more conclusive than that when it comes to whether voters want a candidate thatās further left.
Do you know where left and right come from?
The origins of left and right dont change anything. Just to be clear, Iād vote for a more progressive candidate. But they wouldnāt win in my red state. Moderates have won before though because they get a mix of voters that is larger than just right or left. And if our democracy is on the line then it isnāt time to let perfection be the enemy of progress.
If progressives keep sowing apathy for the Democratic Party then less people will vote democrat and the GOP will keep growing in power. That is, if we get to vote again, considering Trumps rhetoric.
Supporting Democrats and supporting the Democratic Establishment are two different things. I donāt give a shit about red vs blue, but I know that one party is more assailable than the other, so thatās where I look to make change for a better world.
Same here. But I donāt sow apathy for the better option because that gives voters a reason to not vote for that option and it doesnāt take a lot of voters staying home to lose an election.
itās based on the progressive talking point that democrats lost because Harris wasnāt far enough left.
Is that a talking point? If so, progressives arenāt sticking to it very well. I mean, itās true, but only because being further left is also further populist. Progressive analysis is far more extensive than ānot left enoughā. What you are talking about is a straw man constructed by establishment democrats. You love sources, so show me one progressive arguing this way.
Youāre not doing work for me.
I am, because this stuff is easy to lookup, and your arguments are nothing but uncritically accepted vibes.
Maybe Iām missing something but I donāt see any source for that map.
Itās a map of individual donors by county in the 2020 Democratic primary. The reddit link was the first to come up when I searched. Iāll find you a better link as soon as you show me a progressive saying Democrats lost because they werenāt left enough.
Iām not going to debate based on assumptions. Use your words.
If I have to explain to you that Democrats doing better in elections means getting more votes, Iāll be writing fucking novels. How about using your mind just a little?
I must be missing something.
Thatās a little understated. You donāt see the significance of the furthest left Democratic candidate getting through to a fox news audience as applicable to the question?
You really donāt get it and, at this point, Iām happy to just leave it that way.
Is that a talking point? If so, progressives arenāt sticking to it very well. I mean, itās true, but only because being further left is also further populist. Progressive analysis is far more extensive than ānot left enoughā. What you are talking about is a straw man constructed by establishment democrats. You love sources, so show me one progressive arguing this way.
You say itās true but claim itās a straw man constructed by establishment democrats, which is it? Youāre contradicting yourself. Every thread on lemmy regarding Harris losing has someone saying it and now I can add you to the sources since youāre saying itās true.
I am, because this stuff is easy to lookup, and your arguments are nothing but uncritically accepted vibes.
Thatās not how the burden of proof works. You make the claim, you provide evidence to support the claim. Otherwise your claim is made up. If that needs to be explained to you then Itās no wonder youāre posting Reddit threads of screenshots with no sources as a source for your claims.
Itās a map of individual donors by county in the 2020 Democratic primary. The reddit link was the first to come up when I searched. Iāll find you a better link as soon as you show me a progressive saying Democrats lost because they werenāt left enough.
My source is the comment section of every post on lemmy regarding Harris losing. If I share an article claiming the same youāve already primed the argument that itās an establishment democrat straw man while also admitting itās true.
If I have to explain to you that Democrats doing better in elections means getting more votes, Iāll be writing fucking novels. How about using your mind just a little?
This is how people making bad faith arguments move the goalpost. They make vague statements and when they are proven wrong they say they werenāt talking about that thing you assumed, they were referring to something else. The only way to prevent this is to call it out and make them be specific about their statements.
Thatās a little understated. You donāt see the significance of the furthest left Democratic candidate getting through to a fox news audience as applicable to the question?
For that to be applicable to the question, he would have to be the only one that did itā¦ Harris interviewed on Fox News also.
So I guess Iām not missing something, you are.
You really donāt get it and, at this point, Iām happy to just leave it that way.
Iām sure youāre happy to run away without any sources to your claims.
You say itās true but claim itās a straw man constructed by establishment democrats, which is it?
Itās definitionally true that the left says the centrist should move left. Thatās what makes them the left. The actual left analysis over why she lost doesnāt begin and end with wanting her to move left. As I said before, mapping voters out on a right to left spectrum is not an accurate representation of voting preferences. Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney was supposed to appeal to right leaning voters but backfired because it fed the narrative of Harris as a warmonger. Meanwhile Trump was coding himself as anti-war. The fact that Trumpās anti-war signaling was bullshit couldnāt be effectively countered because Harris had aligned herself with right wing war mongers. She damaged herself with the very same right leaning voters that she was trying to appeal to. Likewise with bragging about support from Wall Street and the nationās CEOs. The theory that doing so would appeal to right leaning voters was misguided because populists on the right hate those people. Harris made herself the candidate of the wealthy, the deep state, and the status quo, everything that Trump has successfully branded himself as opposing. The left is used to Democrats leaning right because thatās been a constant since at least Bill Clinton. But Harris making rightward moves that damaged her with right leaning voters was insanity. The Democratic establishment lives in a bubble that hasnāt changed itās modeling since the 90s.
You make the claim, you provide evidence to support the claim.
Asking for evidence to a claim is fine, but not when done in bad faith. First of all, I am not the only one here making claims.
Apathy caused democrats to lose voters in the 2024 election. Sowing more apathy wonāt improve voter turnout.
Second of all, you are nitpicking half the links I gave, while ignoring what you canāt nitpick. You made no acknowledgement of that Pew study at all. I supplied my proof, and my complaint was for having to cast pearls before swine and the shitty way you went about asking for it without providing any evidence of your own claims, or even arguments as to why your claims should be believed.
As I said, Iāll be happy to find a better link for you on the fundraising map, as soon as you start providing some evidence for your own bald assertions. Itās not going to be a one way street.
This is how people making bad faith arguments move the goalpost
Well, you would know bad faith arguments, but thatās hardly applicable in this case. We are talking about how Democrats perform in elections so there is no reasonable ambiguity when I refer to Democrats ādoing betterā. Thatās the last Iām going to say on this dumb side argument.
Harris interviewed on Fox News also.
An interview is not a town hall, and I didnāt just say that Bernie did a town hall on Fox, I linked to the video. Unlike Harrisā interview, the town hall included a right leaning audience that was responding well to left leaning arguments, which directly addressed what you asked me to address.
If you want to move the goalposts and look at just election results, thatās fine. Look into how many voters who split their ticket between AOC and Trump, and what they said when interviewed. You can find your own links until you start supporting your claims with something other than repetition.
Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney was supposed to appeal to right leaning voters but backfired because it fed the narrative of Harris as a warmonger.
No republicans I know have referred to Harris as a warmonger but I have heard complaints from progressives about her stance on Gaza. So your comment implies that her campaigning with Cheney backfired by costing her votes from progressives. Which reinforces what you claim to be an establishment democrat narrative: that an increase amount of progressives didnāt vote for Harris in 2024. So youāre contradicting yourself again.
She damaged herself with the very same right leaning voters that she was trying to appeal to.
Again, Iāve only heard complaints from progressives about her stance on the war in Gaza. In my experience republicans only complained about the money being spent in Gaza and Ukraine because they were told that was the cause of inflation.
The left is used to Democrats leaning right because thatās been a constant since at least Bill Clinton. But Harris making rightward moves that damaged her with right leaning voters was insanity. The Democratic establishment lives in a bubble that hasnāt changed itās modeling since the 90s.
Since the 90s there have been 9 presidential elections and democrats have won 5 of them. It makes perfect sense for them to continue with at least some of the strategies that have earned them the majority of elections.
Asking for evidence to a claim is fine, but not when done in bad faith. First of all, I am not the only one here making claims.
How is asking for evidence done in bad faith? By doing so I found out that there was some truth to your claim that people on the further ends of the political spectrum tend to be more engaged.
Also I found out that there was no credibility to your claim that āweā know how to reach people and that democrats canāt be interested.
Second of all, you are nitpicking half the links I gave, while ignoring what you canāt nitpick. You made no acknowledgement of that Pew study at all. I supplied my proof, and my complaint was for having to cast pearls before swine and the shitty way you went about asking for it without providing any evidence of your own claims, or even arguments as to why your claims should be believed.
I pointed out that a screenshot of a heat map with no legend or any of the required information like quantity of donors or quantity of donations posted on Reddit, is not evidence of anything. Thatās not nitpicking. Thatās telling you what you should already know.
The Pew study showed that people furthest left and right on the spectrum were more politically engaged. They defined that as taking more about politics and being more likely to vote. Your claim was that the further left someoneās ideology the more likely they are to vote and vote democrat. I acknowledge the Pew study supports that they are more likely to vote but it doesnāt say they vote democrat, they are just as likely to be voting 3rd party.
As I said, Iāll be happy to find a better link for you on the fundraising map, as soon as you start providing some evidence for your own bald assertions. Itās not going to be a one way street.
What bald assertions are you referring to? I told you why I claimed that progressives didnāt show up to vote for Harris. I acknowledge that it is based on anecdotal evidence. You reinforced that anecdotal evidence by saying itās true.
Well, you would know bad faith arguments, but thatās hardly applicable in this case. We are talking about how Democrats perform in elections so there is no reasonable ambiguity when I refer to Democrats ādoing betterā. Thatās the last Iām going to say on this dumb side argument.
Yes, this isnāt my first day on the internet. For that reason I am familiar with bad faith arguments. āDoing betterā could imply a better approval rating, more progressive policies, higher voter turnout, winning over more republican voters, winning over more progressive voters, earning more seats in Congress or the house and on and on. I didnāt even put effort into all the different things ādoing betterā could refer to but youāre getting upset because Iām calling out a common tactic in bad faith arguments.
An interview is not a town hall, and I didnāt just say that Bernie did a town hall on Fox, I linked to the video. Unlike Harrisā interview, the town hall included a right leaning audience that was responding well to left leaning arguments, which directly addressed what you asked me to address.
That āright leaning audienceā sure did like his response about trusting scientists when it comes to corona virus and climate change. So the opposite of how a right leaning audience would respond. I live in a red state and there were political ads at this time of politicians killing Dr. Fauci. Those politicians won. This audience is far from āright leaningā.
None of this supports your claim that progressives know how to win over the disengaged voters in the middle of the ideological spectrum.
If you want to move the goalposts and look at just election results, thatās fine. Look into how many voters who split their ticket between AOC and Trump, and what they said when interviewed. You can find your own links until you start supporting your claims with something other than repetition.
This supports my point about the Pew study you shared: the farthest left voters are more likely to vote, just not necessarily for democrats.
Which brings us full circle back to my original point. A remarkable amount of progressives didnāt vote for Harris.
Which reinforces what you claim to be an establishment democrat narrative: that an increase amount of progressives didnāt vote for Harris in 2024. So youāre contradicting yourself again.
Liz Cheney is far more hated by the right than the left. (A flaw with the left from my perspective.)
BTW: Iām still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that progressives didnāt show for Harris.
Since the 90s there have been 9 presidential elections and democrats have won 5 of them. It makes perfect sense for them to continue with at least some of the strategies that have earned them the majority of elections.
And every time the Democrats move to the right, so do the Republicans. That is the process that got us to Trump so, no, I donāt think any sane person would look at where the country is today and pat the Democrats on the back. Aiming to be just a bit better than the Republicans just gives the Republicans space to be even worse. In the last 3 presidential elections, Democrats were so ineffective that they lost to Trump. The working class of this country has been on a steady downhill road for the last 50 years, and the messaging Bill Clinton used doesnāt work anymore.
Also, in at least one of those elections, Obama was the upstart populist candidate. Both Hillary and McCain were establishment candidates in that election. Obama then went full establishment as soon as he won, but his next opponent was Romney, who was also an establishment candidate. I donāt expect the Republicans to be running another milquetoast establishment candidate for a long time. It could even be argued that Bill Clinton ran as a populist for at least his first run, then moved to the center just like Obama. Reagan absolutely ran as a populist.
How is asking for evidence done in bad faith?
I literally explained this immediately after I said it.
I found out that there was some truth to your claim that people on the further ends of the political spectrum tend to be more engaged.
Thatās literally what the Pew study showed. Your unfounded and ridiculous argument that they vote Republican notwithstanding. You could argue that they disproportionately vote for third party candidates but, since the libertarian party regularly outperforms the greens, progressives are far more loyal than the right. Anyways, third parties were clearly irrelevant this cycle, so now you have to pretend progressives are voting for Republicans.
I acknowledge that it is based on anecdotal evidence.
So, ājust trust me broā. Anecdotal evidence, especially filtered though a partisan hack, is worthless.
This supports my point about the Pew study you shared: the farthest left voters are more likely to vote, just not necessarily for democrats.
Funny how you assume that AOC/Trump voters are progressives voting for a Republican and not conservatives voting for a progressive, or liberals voting for a conservative and a progressive. The only reason you assumed the first is because it reinforces what you already believe. A rational analysis would consider the possibility that there is some other factor at play than ideological self identification. If you actually looked into the interviews done with these voters you would have seen the answer. They arenāt progressive, or liberal, or conservative. These are the voters I described before who donāt even think about politics until right before an election, then vote based on vibes. I guarantee that you know a lot of these people. Their choice was made on the populist-establishment spectrum, not the left-right spectrum. When peopleās lives are shit, itās populist messaging that gets their vote.
You think establishment Democrats would be more popular without criticism from progressives, but you actually have it wrong. This is a populist age and you canāt just make voters love the establishment, at least not without putting them in camps for brainwashing. With no populist left messaging, people arenāt just going to swing to the establishment. They will go populist right. At least with a populist left making noise in the Democratic camp, people have a reason to think that Democrats hear them. There is at least a hope that the Democrats will address their problems. Establishment Democrats think bragging about a great economy just tells people they arenāt seen. Even a con-artist like Trump seems like a better choice than just being invisible. When Democrats address this at all, itās with a throw-away line in a speech and crocodile tears. People need a narrative. Trump gave them one, and Harris didnāt. Republicans nurture their populist base, while Democrats try to suppress theirs.
The context was voters calling Harris a warmonger, not republican mouthpieces.
Liz Cheney is far more hated by the right than the left. (A flaw with the left from my perspective.) BTW: Iām still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that progressives didnāt show for Harris.
The graph on you link is blocked by a pop up so Iāll have to take your words for it. In my experience though yes this is anecdotal voters were most influenced by inflation. Which is supported by these polls. Hated or not I donāt think she had a net negative result on the outcome.
And every time the Democrats move to the right, so do the Republicans.
Democrats have since started working with progressives like AOC and Bernie which is a move to the left. But you arenāt the first Iāve seen to claim otherwise by saying democrats have moved right.
In the last 3 presidential elections, Democrats were so ineffective that they lost to Trump.
Trump lost in 2020 and also lost the popular vote in 2016ā¦
I literally explained this immediately after I said it.
You said I was nitpicking them because I pointed out that the Pew study didnāt support your claim and the other source was a screenshot on Reddit aka not credible in any way. Then you claimed I didnāt supply a source for my claim despite the fact that I did. All this to accuse me of arguing in bad faith and use that as an excuse to not supply sources for your claims even after I have.
Thatās literally what the Pew study showed. Your unfounded and ridiculous argument that they vote Republican notwithstanding. You could argue that they disproportionately vote for third party candidates but, since the libertarian party regularly outperforms the greens, progressives are far more loyal than the right. Anyways, third parties were clearly irrelevant this cycle, so now you have to pretend progressives are voting for Republicans.
The pew study only showed that people on the farthest ends of the political spectrum were more likely to vote. It doesnāt support your claim that progressives voted democrat in 2024.
The example you brought up of voters in AOCs district who voted for Biden and AOC in 2020 but voted Trump and AOC in 2024 reflects that.
So, ājust trust me broā. Anecdotal evidence, especially filtered though a partisan hack, is worthless.
There isnāt conclusive evidence to support every claim. As long as we admit when we are referring to anecdotal evidence then we are arguing in good faith. Thatās what Iāve been doing. You refuse to do that and want to treat your opinions and assumptions as fact.
Funny how you assume that AOC/Trump voters are progressives voting for a Republican and not conservatives voting for a progressive, or liberals voting for a conservative and a progressive.
There isnāt enough evidence to go into that much detail. But based on this:
Ocasio-Cortez is one of the Democrats from across the country who performed better than Vice President Kamala Harris in districts where voters appeared to approach the ballot with an a la carte sensibility. That is, they voted across party lines and supported candidates who seemed to have diametrically opposing agendas. A member of the left-leaning group of members of Congress known as āthe squadā Ocasio-Cortez was surprised to see her New York 14th congressional district swing heavily toward Trump even as voters there showed strong support for her candidacy.Ā In 2020, Trump won 22% of the vote in AOCās district compared to Joe Bidenās 77%. Harris did not fare nearly as well. Support for Trump jumped to 33%, and support for Harris dropped to 65%.
Support for Trump jumped to 33%, and support for Harris dropped to 65%.
AOC is left leaning indicating her supporters are too and in her district her supporters increased their votes for Trump in 2024 compared to 2020 and decreased their votes for the democratic candidate in 2024 compared to 2020. Meaning this is an example of left leaning voters voting for Trump in 2024.
AOC is left leaning. So for her to win, her district needs to be made up of enough left leaning voters. And when she asked them to explain why they voted for Trump this response indicates they were not conservatives voting for a progressive:
While it is not the most sophisticated method of surveying voters, the responses were swift and candid:
āā¦wanted change so I went with Trump and blue for the rest of the ballot to put some brakesā
You think establishment Democrats would be more popular without criticism from progressives, but you actually have it wrong. This is a populist age and you canāt just make voters love the establishment, at least not without putting them in camps for brainwashing.
No, I think the 2024 election was one between fascism and the only other option which just happens to be what you call establishment democrat. I donāt care who the alternative to fascism isā¦ they are better than fascism. And the undecided middle voters that donāt pay close attention, hear the criticisms from the left towards democrats along with the propaganda from the right towards democrats and the result was Trump winning. And if Trump gets what he wants we will never vote again.
Given the near unanimous reaction to the assassination of a health insurance CEO, I think the question of whether a populist message can sell across the spectrum is settled. Too bad the Democrats didnāt harness that pent up anger to beat Trump.
The context was voters calling Harris a warmonger, not republican mouthpieces.
Your only evidence is āanecdotalā by your own admission, but your pulling this shit? I work with a guy whoās brother in law is a voter who totally thinks this, so I guess Iām right. I mean come on. Trump isnāt a Republican mouth peace, heās the incoming President, and Vance is the incoming VP. This is shit they directly campaigned on because, presumably, they were under the impression that it would play with voters. Do you think Republican voters really think enough for themselves that what Joe Rogan says doesnāt make a difference? Please. Just admit that you will piss on any and all evidence that contradicts your establishment worldview.
voters were most influenced by inflation
The page you linked to didnāt mention inflation but I donāt disagree, except that Iād say they were most influenced by their economic circumstances, and inflation was the most obvious manifestation of that issue. The inflation we had wasnāt high enough to be a prime concern for voters who otherwise felt financially secure.
Democrats have since started working with progressives like AOC and Bernie which is a move to the left. But you arenāt the first Iāve seen to claim otherwise by saying democrats have moved right.
The context of that claim is important. I was talking about the last 50 years over which the Democrats have absolutely moved right. What I will agree with is that President Biden was a pleasant departure from that trend, even though Senator Biden had been one of the worst. The problem is that Harris did almost nothing to capitalize on what Biden had done. The most progressive move she made in the campaign was to bring on Walz, but then her campaign put him on a leash.
The pew study only showed that people on the farthest ends of the political spectrum were more likely to vote. It doesnāt support your claim that progressives voted democrat in 2024.
If you seriously assume that a significant number of people with enough political awareness to accurately self identify as progressives voted for Trump, then you are just delusional. The idea that the left-most voters would vote for the right-most candidate is the extraordinary claim that should require evidence. The Pew study also said they were more likely to donate and volunteer for campaigns. Do you figure they were knocking on doors for Trump too? Progressives carry the Democratic party, even after decades of the kind of bullshit your spreading.
As long as we admit when we are referring to anecdotal evidence then we are arguing in good faith.
Anecdotal evidence isnāt even really a thing. Presenting anecdotes as evidence isnāt de-facto bad faith, but it is when you come up with every excuse you can to ignore actual evidence.
AOC is left leaning indicating her supporters are too and in her district her supporters increased their votes for Trump in 2024 compared to 2020 and decreased their votes for the democratic candidate in 2024 compared to 2020. Meaning this is an example of left leaning voters voting for Trump in 2024.
Your logic is, letās say, imaginative. AOC is a progressive and progressives (in her district) vote for AOC. It does not follow from that statement that everyone who votes for AOC is a progressive or generally left leaning. Aside from being progressive, AOC is also an anti-establishment populist. It makes perfect sense that an anti-establishment voter would vote for AOC and Trump - especially if they are low information voters.
āā¦wanted change so I went with Trump and blue for the rest of the ballot to put some brakesā
What exactly makes this candidate look left leaning to you? This is a classic low information voter response. āLast time I hit the blue button and didnāt get a cookie, so this time I tried the red buttonā. There is no ideology here. Itās all vibes. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats had messaging that connected with this voter, so they made a Pavlovian mechanical choice.
No, I think the 2024 election was one between fascism and the only other option which just happens to be what you call establishment democratā¦
Letās not confuse what the election was about from a consequences standpoint, and what is was about from an electoral narrative standpoint. I am in perfect agreement with how consequential this election was. My only disagreement is with the implication that itās just me calling Harris an establishment Democrat. Thatās just a statement of fact, not something controversial. There was no primary process that made her the candidate, in either 2020 or 2024. The party (and therefore the establishment running the party) placed her in that role.
And the undecided middle voters that donāt pay close attention, hear the criticisms from the left towards democrats along with the propaganda from the right towards democrats and the result was Trump winning.
If you take the criticisms from the left out of that sentence, those voters are just left with propaganda from the right. Thatās not going to be any better. If they are hearing criticisms from the left, then they are almost certainly hearing criticisms of Trump and the Republicans from the left, as well as good things about the Democrats. Bidenās campaign did a far better job than Harrisā campaign at acknowledging criticisms from progressives and promising to work with progressives once elected. It looked like the Harris campaign was moving in that direction with the Walz pick, but from the convention on she was more like Hillary than Biden in this regard.
You presumably want the left to continue voting for, donating to, and knocking on doors for Democrats, but you donāt want the left to speak up when the Democrats oppose them. Thatās just not realistic, never-mind fair. From a left perspective, neoliberals are not our compatriots. At best establishment Democrats are untrustworthy allies. Our intention is ultimately to replace them in the seats of power. We exist as a critique of the Democratic establishment, and they are our adversaries more than anything else.
Why? Is your belief that progressives donāt show up based on anything but establishment talking points? But sure, Iāll do some work for you. See this Pew study.
Progressives, this, and this.
Um, get votes? I thought that was pretty obvious.
Or, maybe the political universe canāt be captured in a single dimension. Most of the American public (barely) pays attention to politics for 3-4 months every 4 years. They arenāt exactly policy wonks. The dominant measure today is populist vs establishment. People donāt know what they believe, but they do know that neither party establishment gives two shits about them. They wanted a disruptor, and astoundingly they managed to figure out which candidate that was. Not that Trump will do shit for them, but they will learn that (again) soon enough.
Do you know where left and right come from? It was the French parliament after the revolution. The left stood with the people, and the right stood with royalty. Democrats need to stand with the people. As I said above, left vs right political theory isnāt something that most voters (or politicians if weāre being honest) give a shit about. But, with growing inequality and corporate overreach, people do want politicians taking their sides. Trump had more leftist rhetoric than the Democrats.
Supporting Democrats and supporting the Democratic Establishment are two different things. I donāt give a shit about red vs blue, but I know that one party is more assailable than the other, so thatās where I look to make change for a better world.
Nope, itās based on the progressive talking point that democrats lost because Harris wasnāt far enough left. Youāre not doing work for me. I didnāt make the claim. If you canāt be bothered to back up your own claims then they arenāt worth anything.
Maybe Iām missing something but I donāt see any source for that map. How did they get the numbers? What are the numbers? It just looks like someone colored a bunch of land and put some names on it. Not to mention itās a Reddit post.
Youāre confident that you know how to reach people that wonāt vote democrat because of a town hall of Bernie? I must be missing something.
Iām not going to debate based on assumptions. Use your words.
Voters chose the candidate furthest to the right, it doesnāt get any more conclusive than that when it comes to whether voters want a candidate thatās further left.
The origins of left and right dont change anything. Just to be clear, Iād vote for a more progressive candidate. But they wouldnāt win in my red state. Moderates have won before though because they get a mix of voters that is larger than just right or left. And if our democracy is on the line then it isnāt time to let perfection be the enemy of progress.
If progressives keep sowing apathy for the Democratic Party then less people will vote democrat and the GOP will keep growing in power. That is, if we get to vote again, considering Trumps rhetoric.
Same here. But I donāt sow apathy for the better option because that gives voters a reason to not vote for that option and it doesnāt take a lot of voters staying home to lose an election.
Is that a talking point? If so, progressives arenāt sticking to it very well. I mean, itās true, but only because being further left is also further populist. Progressive analysis is far more extensive than ānot left enoughā. What you are talking about is a straw man constructed by establishment democrats. You love sources, so show me one progressive arguing this way.
I am, because this stuff is easy to lookup, and your arguments are nothing but uncritically accepted vibes.
Itās a map of individual donors by county in the 2020 Democratic primary. The reddit link was the first to come up when I searched. Iāll find you a better link as soon as you show me a progressive saying Democrats lost because they werenāt left enough.
If I have to explain to you that Democrats doing better in elections means getting more votes, Iāll be writing fucking novels. How about using your mind just a little?
Thatās a little understated. You donāt see the significance of the furthest left Democratic candidate getting through to a fox news audience as applicable to the question?
You really donāt get it and, at this point, Iām happy to just leave it that way.
You say itās true but claim itās a straw man constructed by establishment democrats, which is it? Youāre contradicting yourself. Every thread on lemmy regarding Harris losing has someone saying it and now I can add you to the sources since youāre saying itās true.
Thatās not how the burden of proof works. You make the claim, you provide evidence to support the claim. Otherwise your claim is made up. If that needs to be explained to you then Itās no wonder youāre posting Reddit threads of screenshots with no sources as a source for your claims.
My source is the comment section of every post on lemmy regarding Harris losing. If I share an article claiming the same youāve already primed the argument that itās an establishment democrat straw man while also admitting itās true.
This is how people making bad faith arguments move the goalpost. They make vague statements and when they are proven wrong they say they werenāt talking about that thing you assumed, they were referring to something else. The only way to prevent this is to call it out and make them be specific about their statements.
For that to be applicable to the question, he would have to be the only one that did itā¦ Harris interviewed on Fox News also.
So I guess Iām not missing something, you are.
Iām sure youāre happy to run away without any sources to your claims.
Itās definitionally true that the left says the centrist should move left. Thatās what makes them the left. The actual left analysis over why she lost doesnāt begin and end with wanting her to move left. As I said before, mapping voters out on a right to left spectrum is not an accurate representation of voting preferences. Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney was supposed to appeal to right leaning voters but backfired because it fed the narrative of Harris as a warmonger. Meanwhile Trump was coding himself as anti-war. The fact that Trumpās anti-war signaling was bullshit couldnāt be effectively countered because Harris had aligned herself with right wing war mongers. She damaged herself with the very same right leaning voters that she was trying to appeal to. Likewise with bragging about support from Wall Street and the nationās CEOs. The theory that doing so would appeal to right leaning voters was misguided because populists on the right hate those people. Harris made herself the candidate of the wealthy, the deep state, and the status quo, everything that Trump has successfully branded himself as opposing. The left is used to Democrats leaning right because thatās been a constant since at least Bill Clinton. But Harris making rightward moves that damaged her with right leaning voters was insanity. The Democratic establishment lives in a bubble that hasnāt changed itās modeling since the 90s.
Asking for evidence to a claim is fine, but not when done in bad faith. First of all, I am not the only one here making claims.
Second of all, you are nitpicking half the links I gave, while ignoring what you canāt nitpick. You made no acknowledgement of that Pew study at all. I supplied my proof, and my complaint was for having to cast pearls before swine and the shitty way you went about asking for it without providing any evidence of your own claims, or even arguments as to why your claims should be believed.
As I said, Iāll be happy to find a better link for you on the fundraising map, as soon as you start providing some evidence for your own bald assertions. Itās not going to be a one way street.
Well, you would know bad faith arguments, but thatās hardly applicable in this case. We are talking about how Democrats perform in elections so there is no reasonable ambiguity when I refer to Democrats ādoing betterā. Thatās the last Iām going to say on this dumb side argument.
An interview is not a town hall, and I didnāt just say that Bernie did a town hall on Fox, I linked to the video. Unlike Harrisā interview, the town hall included a right leaning audience that was responding well to left leaning arguments, which directly addressed what you asked me to address.
If you want to move the goalposts and look at just election results, thatās fine. Look into how many voters who split their ticket between AOC and Trump, and what they said when interviewed. You can find your own links until you start supporting your claims with something other than repetition.
No republicans I know have referred to Harris as a warmonger but I have heard complaints from progressives about her stance on Gaza. So your comment implies that her campaigning with Cheney backfired by costing her votes from progressives. Which reinforces what you claim to be an establishment democrat narrative: that an increase amount of progressives didnāt vote for Harris in 2024. So youāre contradicting yourself again.
Again, Iāve only heard complaints from progressives about her stance on the war in Gaza. In my experience republicans only complained about the money being spent in Gaza and Ukraine because they were told that was the cause of inflation.
Since the 90s there have been 9 presidential elections and democrats have won 5 of them. It makes perfect sense for them to continue with at least some of the strategies that have earned them the majority of elections.
How is asking for evidence done in bad faith? By doing so I found out that there was some truth to your claim that people on the further ends of the political spectrum tend to be more engaged.
Also I found out that there was no credibility to your claim that āweā know how to reach people and that democrats canāt be interested.
I pointed out that a screenshot of a heat map with no legend or any of the required information like quantity of donors or quantity of donations posted on Reddit, is not evidence of anything. Thatās not nitpicking. Thatās telling you what you should already know.
The Pew study showed that people furthest left and right on the spectrum were more politically engaged. They defined that as taking more about politics and being more likely to vote. Your claim was that the further left someoneās ideology the more likely they are to vote and vote democrat. I acknowledge the Pew study supports that they are more likely to vote but it doesnāt say they vote democrat, they are just as likely to be voting 3rd party.
What bald assertions are you referring to? I told you why I claimed that progressives didnāt show up to vote for Harris. I acknowledge that it is based on anecdotal evidence. You reinforced that anecdotal evidence by saying itās true.
Yes, this isnāt my first day on the internet. For that reason I am familiar with bad faith arguments. āDoing betterā could imply a better approval rating, more progressive policies, higher voter turnout, winning over more republican voters, winning over more progressive voters, earning more seats in Congress or the house and on and on. I didnāt even put effort into all the different things ādoing betterā could refer to but youāre getting upset because Iām calling out a common tactic in bad faith arguments.
That āright leaning audienceā sure did like his response about trusting scientists when it comes to corona virus and climate change. So the opposite of how a right leaning audience would respond. I live in a red state and there were political ads at this time of politicians killing Dr. Fauci. Those politicians won. This audience is far from āright leaningā.
Even Fox Newsās Bret Baier Admits Harris Outsmarted Him in Interview
None of this supports your claim that progressives know how to win over the disengaged voters in the middle of the ideological spectrum.
This supports my point about the Pew study you shared: the farthest left voters are more likely to vote, just not necessarily for democrats.
Which brings us full circle back to my original point. A remarkable amount of progressives didnāt vote for Harris.
Split ticket voters offer some bracing lessons for the Democratic Party
Thereās the evidence to support the claim.
You still havenāt supported your original claims.
Trump - JD Vance - Joe Rogan - Glenn Greenwald - Newsweek
Liz Cheney is far more hated by the right than the left. (A flaw with the left from my perspective.) BTW: Iām still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that progressives didnāt show for Harris.
And every time the Democrats move to the right, so do the Republicans. That is the process that got us to Trump so, no, I donāt think any sane person would look at where the country is today and pat the Democrats on the back. Aiming to be just a bit better than the Republicans just gives the Republicans space to be even worse. In the last 3 presidential elections, Democrats were so ineffective that they lost to Trump. The working class of this country has been on a steady downhill road for the last 50 years, and the messaging Bill Clinton used doesnāt work anymore.
Also, in at least one of those elections, Obama was the upstart populist candidate. Both Hillary and McCain were establishment candidates in that election. Obama then went full establishment as soon as he won, but his next opponent was Romney, who was also an establishment candidate. I donāt expect the Republicans to be running another milquetoast establishment candidate for a long time. It could even be argued that Bill Clinton ran as a populist for at least his first run, then moved to the center just like Obama. Reagan absolutely ran as a populist.
I literally explained this immediately after I said it.
Thatās literally what the Pew study showed. Your unfounded and ridiculous argument that they vote Republican notwithstanding. You could argue that they disproportionately vote for third party candidates but, since the libertarian party regularly outperforms the greens, progressives are far more loyal than the right. Anyways, third parties were clearly irrelevant this cycle, so now you have to pretend progressives are voting for Republicans.
So, ājust trust me broā. Anecdotal evidence, especially filtered though a partisan hack, is worthless.
Funny how you assume that AOC/Trump voters are progressives voting for a Republican and not conservatives voting for a progressive, or liberals voting for a conservative and a progressive. The only reason you assumed the first is because it reinforces what you already believe. A rational analysis would consider the possibility that there is some other factor at play than ideological self identification. If you actually looked into the interviews done with these voters you would have seen the answer. They arenāt progressive, or liberal, or conservative. These are the voters I described before who donāt even think about politics until right before an election, then vote based on vibes. I guarantee that you know a lot of these people. Their choice was made on the populist-establishment spectrum, not the left-right spectrum. When peopleās lives are shit, itās populist messaging that gets their vote.
You think establishment Democrats would be more popular without criticism from progressives, but you actually have it wrong. This is a populist age and you canāt just make voters love the establishment, at least not without putting them in camps for brainwashing. With no populist left messaging, people arenāt just going to swing to the establishment. They will go populist right. At least with a populist left making noise in the Democratic camp, people have a reason to think that Democrats hear them. There is at least a hope that the Democrats will address their problems. Establishment Democrats think bragging about a great economy just tells people they arenāt seen. Even a con-artist like Trump seems like a better choice than just being invisible. When Democrats address this at all, itās with a throw-away line in a speech and crocodile tears. People need a narrative. Trump gave them one, and Harris didnāt. Republicans nurture their populist base, while Democrats try to suppress theirs.
The context was voters calling Harris a warmonger, not republican mouthpieces.
The graph on you link is blocked by a pop up so Iāll have to take your words for it. In my experience though yes this is anecdotal voters were most influenced by inflation. Which is supported by these polls. Hated or not I donāt think she had a net negative result on the outcome.
Democrats have since started working with progressives like AOC and Bernie which is a move to the left. But you arenāt the first Iāve seen to claim otherwise by saying democrats have moved right.
Trump lost in 2020 and also lost the popular vote in 2016ā¦
The pew study only showed that people on the farthest ends of the political spectrum were more likely to vote. It doesnāt support your claim that progressives voted democrat in 2024.
The example you brought up of voters in AOCs district who voted for Biden and AOC in 2020 but voted Trump and AOC in 2024 reflects that.
There isnāt conclusive evidence to support every claim. As long as we admit when we are referring to anecdotal evidence then we are arguing in good faith. Thatās what Iāve been doing. You refuse to do that and want to treat your opinions and assumptions as fact.
There isnāt enough evidence to go into that much detail. But based on this:
AOC is left leaning indicating her supporters are too and in her district her supporters increased their votes for Trump in 2024 compared to 2020 and decreased their votes for the democratic candidate in 2024 compared to 2020. Meaning this is an example of left leaning voters voting for Trump in 2024.
AOC is left leaning. So for her to win, her district needs to be made up of enough left leaning voters. And when she asked them to explain why they voted for Trump this response indicates they were not conservatives voting for a progressive:
While it is not the most sophisticated method of surveying voters, the responses were swift and candid:
No, I think the 2024 election was one between fascism and the only other option which just happens to be what you call establishment democrat. I donāt care who the alternative to fascism isā¦ they are better than fascism. And the undecided middle voters that donāt pay close attention, hear the criticisms from the left towards democrats along with the propaganda from the right towards democrats and the result was Trump winning. And if Trump gets what he wants we will never vote again.
Given the near unanimous reaction to the assassination of a health insurance CEO, I think the question of whether a populist message can sell across the spectrum is settled. Too bad the Democrats didnāt harness that pent up anger to beat Trump.
Your only evidence is āanecdotalā by your own admission, but your pulling this shit? I work with a guy whoās brother in law is a voter who totally thinks this, so I guess Iām right. I mean come on. Trump isnāt a Republican mouth peace, heās the incoming President, and Vance is the incoming VP. This is shit they directly campaigned on because, presumably, they were under the impression that it would play with voters. Do you think Republican voters really think enough for themselves that what Joe Rogan says doesnāt make a difference? Please. Just admit that you will piss on any and all evidence that contradicts your establishment worldview.
The page you linked to didnāt mention inflation but I donāt disagree, except that Iād say they were most influenced by their economic circumstances, and inflation was the most obvious manifestation of that issue. The inflation we had wasnāt high enough to be a prime concern for voters who otherwise felt financially secure.
The context of that claim is important. I was talking about the last 50 years over which the Democrats have absolutely moved right. What I will agree with is that President Biden was a pleasant departure from that trend, even though Senator Biden had been one of the worst. The problem is that Harris did almost nothing to capitalize on what Biden had done. The most progressive move she made in the campaign was to bring on Walz, but then her campaign put him on a leash.
If you seriously assume that a significant number of people with enough political awareness to accurately self identify as progressives voted for Trump, then you are just delusional. The idea that the left-most voters would vote for the right-most candidate is the extraordinary claim that should require evidence. The Pew study also said they were more likely to donate and volunteer for campaigns. Do you figure they were knocking on doors for Trump too? Progressives carry the Democratic party, even after decades of the kind of bullshit your spreading.
Anecdotal evidence isnāt even really a thing. Presenting anecdotes as evidence isnāt de-facto bad faith, but it is when you come up with every excuse you can to ignore actual evidence.
Your logic is, letās say, imaginative. AOC is a progressive and progressives (in her district) vote for AOC. It does not follow from that statement that everyone who votes for AOC is a progressive or generally left leaning. Aside from being progressive, AOC is also an anti-establishment populist. It makes perfect sense that an anti-establishment voter would vote for AOC and Trump - especially if they are low information voters.
What exactly makes this candidate look left leaning to you? This is a classic low information voter response. āLast time I hit the blue button and didnāt get a cookie, so this time I tried the red buttonā. There is no ideology here. Itās all vibes. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats had messaging that connected with this voter, so they made a Pavlovian mechanical choice.
Letās not confuse what the election was about from a consequences standpoint, and what is was about from an electoral narrative standpoint. I am in perfect agreement with how consequential this election was. My only disagreement is with the implication that itās just me calling Harris an establishment Democrat. Thatās just a statement of fact, not something controversial. There was no primary process that made her the candidate, in either 2020 or 2024. The party (and therefore the establishment running the party) placed her in that role.
If you take the criticisms from the left out of that sentence, those voters are just left with propaganda from the right. Thatās not going to be any better. If they are hearing criticisms from the left, then they are almost certainly hearing criticisms of Trump and the Republicans from the left, as well as good things about the Democrats. Bidenās campaign did a far better job than Harrisā campaign at acknowledging criticisms from progressives and promising to work with progressives once elected. It looked like the Harris campaign was moving in that direction with the Walz pick, but from the convention on she was more like Hillary than Biden in this regard.
You presumably want the left to continue voting for, donating to, and knocking on doors for Democrats, but you donāt want the left to speak up when the Democrats oppose them. Thatās just not realistic, never-mind fair. From a left perspective, neoliberals are not our compatriots. At best establishment Democrats are untrustworthy allies. Our intention is ultimately to replace them in the seats of power. We exist as a critique of the Democratic establishment, and they are our adversaries more than anything else.