What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
This post got brigaded; you know, that thing that the very same people accuse us of 📽
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44029753
Some of them even broke out their alt accounts, which they use exclusively for vote-spamming. One of them has a two year old account that’s never made a single post or comment. We ban those.
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
Do you folks not know that two things can be bad at the same time
Do you people get given a pre-opproved list of thought terminating cliches phrases? Because you always say that exact phrase, word for word, even when it doesn’t remotely apply to the conversation at hand, as is the case here.
Ok, just in case there’s a chance for you to be good faith. The above comment was a reply to a post about there being a lot of pro china and pro Russia propaganda being on Lemmy. It implied that the only way you can be against china and/or Russia is if you’ve fallen for western propaganda. This is a very clear fallacy, as being critical of china and/or Russia does not imply that you aren’t also critical of the west. There’s no conspiracy going on where everyone agreed to comment the same stuff, but if the same fallacy gets repeated over and over, multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
It implied
Ok, so you’re just putting words in their mouth.
This is a very clear fallacy,
Which they didn’t make, by your own admition. You just strawmanned them.
multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
Using the exact same stilted phrasing, word for word, every time?
You’re not buying any of this yourself, are you?
Wow, you sure stopped pretending you care about logical fallacies real quickly
Removed by mod
Funnily enough they almost always live in western democracies where they don’t need to fear reprisals for criticizing their government, something they wouldn’t dare do in China
bold assertion to make while pretty much every western ‘democracy’ is cracking down on people protesting for palestine
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lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it’s not a “disinformation campaign,” nor is it organized. It’s because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES (“Actually Existing Socialism”), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North’s imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn’t rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn’t because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it’s the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it’s rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here’s my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
I can’t stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn’t an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because “west bad.” Russia can’t imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you’re going to call leftists “fake,” then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
The Minsk agreement has nothing to do with the formation of the Donetsk “republic”.
Though Russia respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine was a big part of it nobody seems to remember.
Yanukovych refused to sign a free trade agreement with the EU that the Ukrainian Parliament had ratified, leading to the largest democratic protests in Europe in decades. When he was ousted from power, Russia realized they were losing their puppet, invaded Crimea and fully backed fringe separatist movements providing money, arms and Russian regulars on “vacation” to generate a pretext for the 2014 full scale invasion.
it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded
NATO is a voluntary defensive alliance. The only reason it has expanded is because Russia continually tries to invade the former Soviet republics.
If eastern Europe wasn’t terrified of Russia, they wouldn’t be applying to join.
Putin requested to join NATO 2
Sure Putin at some point allegedly expressed interest in joining NATO. Who the fuck knows what happened but he also allegedly refused to apply for membership.
Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s
Do you have any idea what the market is like in Russia? Have you ever even visited? It’s a state run by robber barons with palaces and yachts all over the world. The west couldn’t plunder what Putin and his cronies have already robbed.
Look at what China managed to build since the 90s and look at the failed state of Russia after decades of Putin’s rule.
The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder
You mean the gold mines Wagner was running in Africa to plunder for the Russian war chest?
It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
You acknowledge Russia wants to, but you admit the only reason they don’t, is that they can’t? So we’re in some sort of agreement here.
familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
Attempting to expand your countries power through military action is the textbook definition of imperialism.
Marx (correctly) views imperialism as an inevitability of a capitalist system due to its drive to expand and accumulate capital, but he didn’t define the word.
What’s most disappointing is how little respect is given to democratic movements by authoritarians posing as socialists. People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
The western trade agreement required privatization of safety nets and general austerity politics, the Russian loans did not. The Russian loans had more respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine than the western loans, hence the decisuon of Yanukovych. The nationalists in the west couped the government with the assistance of the west, installing the Banderite nationalist regime, while the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk seceded after seeing their president get couped.
NATO is an alliance of imperialist states that has been led by Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. Its sole purpose is to perpetuate imperialism, and encircle countries that oppose having their markets plundered by the west. Russia is not trying to “continually invade” countries.
Putin wanted to join NATO because Putin wanted Russia to be able to imperialize the global south like the west does. Pretty clear-cut.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country owned by capitalists. The PRC is socialist, which is why it has achieved far more in the same span, and did not collapse into capitalism like Russia did.
The Sahel States are a coalition of anti-imperialist countries that are nationalizing their industry and focusing more on trading finished goods than raw materials. This was impossible when the west was imperializing them, Russia is not imperializing the Sahel States because they can’t.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country that, by circumstance, is forced to align with progressive, anti-imperialist movements and socialist countries. Nobody is saying “Russia is a perfect country that is ideologically pure,” that’s the point of critical support.
Russia is not trying to expand their power through conquest, their goal is to demillitarize Ukraine and ensure its neutrality with NATO, as Ukraine is the best front to stage a war on Russia.
Marx analyzed imperialism in its very early stages, it was Lenin that expanded that theory into the Marxist canon and thoroughly established and analyzed it. There are practically no Marxists that reject Lenin’s analysis of imperialism.
I do listen to Ukrainians, support for the war is falling sharply, and the ethnic Russians in LPR and DPR have wanted independence from Ukraine for over a decade. The best thing for the Ukrainian working class is a quick surrender of the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and a prompt socialist revolution to oust the Banderite regime.
I do listen to Ukrainians
Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?
I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:
- The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
- The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
Can you speak more to those ideas?
NATO has been pressing eastward despite making agreements with Russia that it would not. From the beginning, NATO was formed as an anti-communist alliance, and even after the Soviet Union fell it has been a key tool in encircling Russia to get them to open up their markets to foreign plunder, a tried and true strategy used elsewhere.
Yanukovych was correct in not pursuing the western requirement of austerity politics and becoming a puppet of western countries. NATO used this as an opportunity to overthrow Yanukovych and install a far-right Banderite regime. When the Donbass region wanted to secede, Kiev responded with ethnic repression in the form of language suppression and outright shelling, shelling which accelerated in the weeks leading up to Russian invasion.
With a far-right regime that is violently Russophobic and is cozying up to the number 1 anti-Russian millitary alliance in the world right on their borders, Russia decided to invade when diplomacy fell through. Russia does not give a shit about extraction from Ukraine. They are not in this for the plunder. Russia purely wants Ukraine to promise NATO neutrality, and stop the ethnic cleansing in Donetsk and Luhansk.
This is the bog-standard communist take. Orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation have released statements, same as FRSO’s statement. You are unfamiliar with communism yet are trying to use it against itself.
Did you respond to the correct post? This isn’t relevant to what I asked.
The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement
It was a fast moving process. Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known. Russia did make a much better offer than EU, and Yanukovych was right to prefer it.
The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones
While there is an obvious pull among the young to get western values, CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes. The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing. Not informed pragmatic study of all alternatives.
the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
The nazi rulership, installed by US, immediately massacred opposition in Odessa, removed Russian language rights, and wanted to seize Crimean port out of Russian lease. Ukrainian naziism has become the new western liberal values, but most people don’t like nazis, and especially not their “subhuman labelled” targets for extermination.
Your previous post was dishonest as well.
Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known.
I think you’re conflating two separate issues. The IMF was not involved in trade talks between the EU and Ukraine. It was when Ukraine was seeking loans but Yanukovych didn’t reject to ratify the EU bill because of the IMF.
CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes
To what end goal?
Is it so hard to believe that given the choice between closer ties to the EU or a gay hating, poverty stricken state run by robber barons and oligarchs, Ukrainians might have preferred the EU?
The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing.
This isn’t a fair argument, I could say the same thing about you, and you could say the same about me. How can we find truth when we both believe the other is simply regurgitating programming from some shadowy propaganda source.
I’ll ask this: Do you feel yourself entrenched in these views or are you actually open to changing them through discussion?
immediately massacred opposition in Odessa,
This didn’t happen though.
removed Russian language rights
This also didn’t happen.
People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
Which Ukrainians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Banderite fascists?
- The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
- The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.Which Russians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Wagner fascists?
- The Russian democrats and anti-fascists who, after opposing Putin’ss unelected government, were subsequently terrorized by the FSB for nearly a decade before being imprisoned or killed?
- The Eastern Russians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
See how easy it is to write this bullshit? And mine is actually true.
You’ve rejected western propaganda, which is fair, but then rather than engaging with reality critically, you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
What’s your point, that Ukrainians are an undifferentiated mass of Euro stans like our government and media portray them? Because that’s bullshit. We’re not talking about Russians, we’re talking about Ukrainians, including those with linguistic, cultural, familial, and business ties to Russia.
you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
Do you think I’m watching RT and reading Pravda? Almost everything I’ve read or heard has come from Western sources. Almost all the links in my previous comment are Western sources.
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine, tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia’s most important border near Russia’s most populated parts, and has been conducting terror attacks against the Russian population.
The rest of the world has every right to defend against NATO, so you either have a good explanation for what else Russia could have done in this regard, or your criticism of Russia is not serious.Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The fact that Russia hasn’t done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq - let alone the genocide of Palestine - does make Russia better.
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine
You mean when the largest european democratic movement in decades ousted a Russian puppet who refused to pass a bill ratified by the Ukrainian Parliament?
tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia’s most important border near Russia’s most populated parts
This never happened.
defend against NATO,
NATO is a defensive alliance. The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
And before you wind up the next “gotcha”, there are lots of dog shit imperialist countries in NATO, but we’re discussing the organization itself here.
The fact that Russia hasn’t done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq
Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan?
And also this is your moral foundation? It doesn’t matter what crimes Russia is committing so long as they never commit more crimes than the US?
NATO is a defensive alliance.
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
- Previously: NATO didn’t stop a genocide [in Yugoslavia]; it aided one[1][2][3].
- Previously: NATO […] destroyed Libya.
Right. I agree that NATO tacitly supports US imperialism but you’re also conflating the actions of the US with NATO as a whole. Turkey did not invade Afghanistan for example.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable. The bombing is the only reason it stopped. Your argument is literally “those boys, women and children were CIA assets, trust me bro”
But regardless, I think we’re not actually engaging correctly with each other’s points here. Let’s refocus with some simple facts.
- NATO did not attack Russia.
- Russia invaded Ukraine.
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperial aggression?
Edit to add: Oh, that one was already in my previous comment. Sorry for repeating myself. Here’s a talk by Parenti to summarize.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable. The bombing is the only reason it stopped.
Tell me you didn’t engage with the material I provided without telling me you didn’t engage with the material I provided. Here’s another: Michael Parenti » To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia
I engaged with it. It’s saying the Serbs were responding to a proxy war initiated by the CIA when they were literally just exterminating Bosnians.
You can give me your summary but I’m not reading any more dubious links on the matter, especially when link bashing is being used as a rhetoric device to prevent your argument being challenged.
And again:
- NATO did not attack Russia
- Russia invaded Ukraine
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperialism?
Right. I agree that NATO tacitly supports US imperialism
Not ‘tacitly’, and not just the US’ imperialism.
You are blatantly trying to absolve the glorified USian provinces of imperialism and colonialism by downplaying their complicity and willingness in subjecting the world to these horrors.but you’re also conflating the actions of the US with NATO as a whole.
You are, again, trying to downplay the actions of the US’ glorified provinces that is the rest of NATO, and distance them from their own actions.
Turkey did not invade Afghanistan for example.
Turkey did invade Afghanistan. And other places, together with the rest of NATO.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable.
Given that you keep being demonstrated to be wrong about everything, you should stop laughing about things that people who are consistently correct tell you.
NATO did not attack Russia.
The most prolific invader in the world that is engaging in at least one obvious and high-profile genocide doing a coup in a country that neighbours another country’s most populated areas and then attempting to bring weapons and personnel to the relevant border is, in fact, an act of aggression, and the rest of the world has every right to defend itself against NATO.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
As a response to NATO’s aggression.
Notably, you are yet to explain what Russia should have done, despite you being prompted to.
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperial aggression?
Did Germans have a right to defend themselves from the Allies’ ‘imperial aggression’ in 1930-1940s?
Also, going to note that you are completely fine with terror attacks conducted by your empire, including against the Russian population which you deny any right to defend itself against you.
The rest of the world has a right to defend itself against NATO. The population of the most prolific invader in the world that is currently engaging in at least one high-profile genocide is not the priority in this situation (unless, again, you think that the rest of the world should roll over for you).Let’s look at this from another perspective.
Russia has completely failed it’s “special military operation” in Ukraine and is bogged down in a war of attrition with a nation that is not in NATO.
NATO countries are supplying a trickle of arms to Ukraine, but without a single NATO boot on the ground, without a single aircraft carrier, Russia has been stopped in its tracks and has failed to complete the majority of it’s military objectives, having even lost actual Russian territory to Ukrainian counter offensives.
Clearly Russia would not stand a chance if NATO decided to invade them.
So that begs the question, if you believe NATO wants to invade Russia, and it’s clear Russia couldn’t stop them, why haven’t they?
EDIT: People should stop claiming that the gang of states that are currently engaging in at least one genocide, keep invading everywhere, doing coups is a ‘defensive alliance’.
You mean when the largest european democratic movement in decades ousted a Russian puppet
This is silly.
That’s quite a fantasy you have concocted there.Firstly, just describing any pro-NATO movement, i.e. a movement that supports literal colonialism, as ‘democratic’ is extremely silly. Especially when such movements are known to be created by NATO and include literal politicians and open nazis. Going to also note that you are fine with the perpetual dictator Zelenskiy.
Secondly, everybody is familiar with things like the leaked correspondence between USian representatives in Ukraine picking who gets to be in what position in the new government weeks before the completion of the coup, as well as them bragging about how much money they spent on subjugating Ukraine.
Thirdly, you can’t even name what was supposedly so bad about Yanukovich. It’s pretty obvious that his sin - in your eyes - was that he did not sell Ukraine off to NATO.who refused to pass a bill ratified by the Ukrainian Parliament?
Oh no. An elected president vetoed a bill that was being protested against by the same people that you love being in power.
Mind sharing why an elected president vetoing a bill justifies NATO completing yet another coup? Sounds like your standards are very much not applied uniformly.This never happened.
This is, again, silly.
Do you want to tell us that Ukraine was not trying to join NATO in the years 2014-2022, and that no relevant claims were made by NATO?NATO is a defensive alliance.
This is also very very silly.
Nobody can seriously claim that invasions of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Palestine (complete with a very obvious genocide), Libya, Vietnam, Laos, Korea, etc. - all done by NATO - were ‘defensive’.
The only ‘defensive’ thing about NATO is how it protects its members from facing justice for centuries of ongoing colonialism, including for settler-colonial and other genocides.The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
Between Iraq and Afghanistan, there is not a single de jure member of NATO that did not participate. And those were very obviously wars started by NATO, with NATO invading those countries.
There is also the fact that not every glorified USian province sending troops neither makes those non-NATO actions, nor negates other forms of complicity in the activities.And before you wind up the next “gotcha”, there are lots of dog shit imperialist countries in NATO, but we’re discussing the organization itself here.
If every member of this organisation is a ‘dog-shit imperialist state’ - and they all are, - then we can conclude that there is no defense that can be levied for the organisation itself that is the most prolific invader in the world and that is currently engaging in at least one high-profile genocide.
Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan?
This is also silly.
Russia did not invade Afghanistan and Syria. Russia literally helped Syria against your invasion forces and DAESH (which has since become yet another de facto part of NATO, if it ever wasn’t).
Russia fought against the separatist in Chechnya with NATO’s support. The part of the Russian government that supported the separation of Chechnya were shelled with tanks by pro-NATO forces.
Georgia was literally the one that attacked the Ossetian separatists. This is doubly silly, considering that you support Chechen separatists.And also this is your moral foundation? It doesn’t matter what crimes Russia is committing so long as they never commit more crimes than the US?
Again, the rest of the world has every right to defend itself from NATO. Look at what you did to Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Palestine. On what grounds should the rest of the world just roll over for you?
Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.
As a Chinese person it’s actually really refreshing to not be inundated with western propaganda. Here’s some examples that come to mind:
The US quietly admitting the “Spy Balloon” did no spying several months and millions of dollars later.
People are actually moving into “ghost cities” as it pre-emptively neutralized a housing crisis before it began
China’s social credit system is actually extremely benign and fragmented while aiming to target businesses and businessmen, tracking bankruptcies, scams and reneged deals and so on.
But you’ll get people too propagandized to accept truth even if, for example, all the sources you provide are from reliable Western media
wow this one spawned a hell of a struggle session
OP was banned from Memes@lemmy.ml for trying to push the “Chinese spy balloons” thing and posted this thread to cry about it.
Ml was always pro china pro russia nothing new. I am more worried about the rise of zionism apologists
Tribalism is a cancer. We dont need it anymore.
United we stand, divided we fall.
What an absolute clusterfuck of a thead. Isn’t .ml a leftist lemmy?..
Do you really have to ask this question lol?
Lemmy.world is full of libs who will take you with open arms, trust me.
211·5 days ago.ml isnt leftist in the same way as hexbear and lemmygrad, there aren’t any rules about being a lib. But since the mods are leftists it does lean more towards it.
I mean there are plenty of instances with isolation from the “pro-china and pro-russia stuff” if that’s such a negative thing for the OP to make a post about it.
OP got butt hurt after got his comment removed for still somehow believing the bullshit about COVID been a bioweapon so he made this post.
I believe covid might have been a bioweapon. Just out of fort detrick not wuhan
In a very simplified answer: China and Russia (as well as Iran) never made any thinly-veiled threats of turning my hometown of Johannesburg into the next Gaza.
I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was “essential” - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn’t really count)
I became pro-China after that.
Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago
I am so baffled since years that (mostly) americans think if you are against us (or its imperialism) u automatically need to be pro China and vice versa. I really can’t get why you guys always need to bootlick one or the other government. Why can’t you not fight for a better system, why do u always fight for a better oppressor?!
Really grinds my gears.
The PRC is the better system. It has a socialist market economy, one that works for the people, and doesn’t depend on imperialism. China isn’t an oppressor. Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China, as they are the ones directly experiencing western imperialism and watching China focus on mutual development and cooperation.
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being “anti-west,” if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The PRC is the better system. […] Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China,
May I ask where your from?
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being “anti-west,” if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The comment I replied to litterally reduced their support of China to being anti-western opression and implies those are the same thing.
Not a strawman at all
I’ve stated elsewhere that I’m a USian, I live in the US Empire. That doesn’t take away from my points, though, polls on approval of the PRC are much higher in the global south than they are in the global north. I’m in the minority as a supporter of the PRC in the US, and it’s largely because I’m a Marxist-Leninist that I am.
Further, no, being anti-imperialist does not mean that is the only reason to support the PRC. You strawmanned their point (correct the pronouns you used).
Yeah have at it.
That’s exactly my point. People see their own system is bad, they check that china/real existing socialism is regarded as the opposite to the system they consider bad - they have valid points but also pink-red glasses which makes them overlook problems.
My point is, that we have 3 world powers, China, us and Russia, and ALL of them act in hegemonial fashion.
Yes, us is currently the worst, but NONE of them fight for the working class, ALL of them fight to keep the ones rich, who are rich and the ones powerful, which are powerful in their respective system.
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
It does hold up to Marx’s imagination of a “lower phase” of socialism, heading in the direction of higher phases and then ultimately communism. This has been a continuous understand of the necessarily long process among Marxists, because we aren’t utopians imagining a fantastical overnight transformation: https://files.catbox.moe/6n2qll.avif
No, this is deeply unserious. What actually happens is people like me notice the problems surrounding us, read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and other Marxist writers, see what the PRC is managing to achieve thanks to its socialist system, and then learn to check media critically, looking at the sources, motivations, etc in order to actually see what’s going on. Then we keep reading theory and try to start organizing. Your characterization of leftists as simply supporting the opposite of what is going on is a mischaracterization, one you have not once provided proof for, yet is your entire argument.
Secondly, only the US is the world hegemon. It is the world’s largest empire, and has full control of institutions like NATO and the IMF, which it wields in its favor to secure imperialism. Russia is not a hegemon, it has fallen far from its heights as the Soviet Union. The PRC isn’t a hegemon either, it is overtaking the US but it doesn’t depend on imperialism, millitary or financial domination.
Russia is capitalist, correct, and the US is too, but they stand at odds due to the US being the world Empire and Russia being encircled by it. In the PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
This is absolutely peak western chauvanism, undue superiority and self-confidence while knowing nothing about how much of Marx, Engels, and Lenin I’ve read. From Marx alone, not at all counting the dozens of other Marxists I have read:
And I am about a third of the way through Capital: Volume 2. You have no idea what I have studied, and think you can just mouth off as though you know what I know better than I do. It’s peak western chauvanism. I’ve elaborated many times elsewhere on China’s system, but at its core, the proletariat is in power, and public property is the principle aspect of the economy. The large firms and key industries are publicly owned, and as the medium firms grow the state exerts more control and gradually sublimates them into the public sector. This gradual approach to sublimating property once the dictatorship of the proletariat has been established is right out of the communist manifesto. China is in the early developing stage of socialism, and is continuing to develop and socialize the economy.
For further reading:
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Qiao Collective’s Introductory Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Study Guide
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My “Read Theory, Darn It!” Introductory Marxist-Leninist Reading Guide
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Has China Turned to Capitalism? Reflections on the Transition from Capitalism to Socialism by Domenico Losurdo
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China Has Billionaires by Roderic Day
Do some reading if you want to use how much we’ve read as a cudgel.
~I’m not who you were replying to before.~
I agree that the chinese mixed market model is better, and that the US sucks ass, but I have one question about your claims.
PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
can you explain to me how that can be true while the government is unelected and visibly does authoritarian stuff such as censorship, violent repression of various undesireables and supression of independent worker’s unions?
his
Check pronouns. They/Them.
Thanks :) Sometimes gendering in foreign languages is still hard for me
Your comment reminded me of this Rosa quote:
“The German government‑socialists may shout that the rule of the Bolsheviks is a caricature of the dictatorship of the proletariat. If it was or is, then only for the reason that it is a product of the conduct of the German proletariat, conduct which was a caricature of socialist class struggle.”
I live in the US, I don’t see the reason to demonize its enemies on the other side of the planet when my class enemies are right here running the US government and its associated political parties.
I don’t see reason to demonize people at all not Americans not Chinese.
We should be in solidarity with everyone from the working class, no matter his or her place of birth.
Fighting for the working class always means fighting against oppressors.
In the historical period we live in us is the worst of them, but that doesn’t make other ones good.
Freedom of minorities, press, and assembly are under atack nearly everywhere, in the us in the EU, in China and in Russia - but those are tools the working class needs to build a better system.
Bravo, you checked that the us government system has major flaws, may critically look at there enemies, for they are not even close to the ideals they pretend following.
Demonizing doesn’t help, but idolizing also doesn’t.
May try to fight for the people, not for the powerfull.
There is no system existing on this planet at the moment which will do that for you. Simping for one or the other oppressor doesn’t cut it, even if some are better then others, you need to fight for the people, not the powerful.
The way to fight for the people isn’t by going along with 100% of US propaganda about its state enemies.
Do you think that I should be taking a German fundamentalist ‘on a mission from god’ against china and communism as an authority on the oppression there when he doesn’t even speak the language and routinely fabricates evidence?
No?
Edit: don’t see your point. Its not like I am citing Donald trump…
I was referring to Adrian zenz, that guy seems to pop up in literally every western accusation about China at this point.
The most recent example being him as a ‘fluent’ mandarin speaker hearing the word “满勤奖” or ‘full attendance award’ from a recording in a factory and intentionally misrepresenting it as “Xinjiang.” That was then the basis for then claiming that there was evidence of forced labor in Xinjiang.
Ok… Not me
Its not like I am citing Donald trump…
Who are you citing then? Which accusations from the West against China do you not believe? Are there any?
The working class of the PRC is the class in power! This is chauvanism, why on Earth do you get to say that the working class needs to overthrow the socialist system they support? This is a deeply western viewpoint you have, the Chinese working class already overthrew their oppressors last century.
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What’s your point, exactly? Is this just an unrelated jab at the DPRK? Are you saying people can only support their governments if they are brainwashed? Brainwashing doesn’t even exist, it was a concept invented by the west to explain why citizens of socialist countries support their system, which they failed to replicate with MKUltra:
The term “brainwashing” was first used in English by Edward Hunter in 1950 to describe how the Chinese government appeared to make people cooperate with them during the Korean War.
In 1979, John D. Marks wrote in his book The Search for the Manchurian Candidate that until the MKUltra program was effectively terminated in 1963, the agency’s researchers had found no reliable way to brainwash another person, as all experiments at some stage always ended in either amnesia or catatonia, making any operational use impossible.
According to the most recent report (2024), people in China have overwhelmingly positive views of their political system. 92% of people say that democracy is important to them, 79% say that their country is democratic, 91% say that the government serves the interests of most people (rather than a small group), and 85% say all people have equal rights before the law. Furthermore, China outperforms the US and most European countries on these indicators – in fact, it has some of the strongest results in the world. The figure below compares China’s results to those from the US, France and Britain. These results may help explain the high levels of satisfaction with government reported by the Ash Center.
You don’t appear to have any point supported by data, just failed Cold War conspiracy theories.
Haha, where did you get brainwashing from? I would trust polling from the notorious big-brother state of China about as much as from Russia or NK, that is to say, not much at all.
China is literally the only hope humanity has to survive climate change at this point and if you’re not aware of that you’re ignorant, sorry
Don’t want to start an argument, genuinely asking, how is china the “only hope”? If we look at certain european countries, or even canada, brazil or the drc, they run on a much larger percentage of renewables than china. China is still running 60% coal.
As for tech, china does have a lead in many technologies, but it’s not like they’re the only ones that can make good products in those categories.
I have literally never in my life heard of a country make an ambitious climate goal and then actually achieve it other than china. China is the only country actually investing substantial money into all that renewable energy research while western countries cling to fossil fuel profits (almost like capitalism affords incredibly wealthy oil companies inordinate political and economic authority, huh).
There’s literally a fucking meme of California vs China talking about high speed rail, after like 20 years California had built shit and China’s built over 25000 miles of it. I’m pretty sure here in present year that’s 46000 miles of it.
China is stockpiling resources and building infrastructure to plan for the absolute devastation that is going to be wrought on human society over the next few decades. What the fuck has literally anyone else done? If any country in earth is going to be resilient enough to weather the crop failures and super storms we’re destined for and, god fucking i hope, be in a position to help anyone else (and with an ideological basis that would impel them to without expecting a century of debt bondage in return) it’s going to be China.
