If anyone has the rest of the interview, I’d love to see it.
You dipshits brought this down on us, so STFU and go enjoy your horrible consequences.
Didn’t we TELL YOU? Pretty sure we fucking TOLD YOU.
Leopards ate my race.
Jesus, I don’t like that.
If it was only him and the stakes weren’t so high it would be an okay joke.
In run-up to the 1964 election, civil rights leaders including Martin Luther King Jr. were given an audience with incumbent president Lyndon Johnson, where he asked them to scale down their protest activity until after the election so he could be confident he could win. They understood correctly that by continuing to protest, they had political leverage.
Imagine an alternative reality where LBJ had not signed the Civil Rights Act, and instead Barry Goldwater had won and increased the segregation and discrimination facing African-americans. Would you blame them for using the only electoral political leverage they had available, and laugh at their misfortune?
The only check the worst excesses of the Trump presidency has is the potential for widespread civil unrest. The Democrats aren’t capable of that. Grassroots Palestinian-american organizations are. In building that base of resistance, we shouldn’t make the same mistakes that caused the Democrats to lose the election. In the words of Nate Silver:
Democrats…often get angry with you when you only halfway agree with them. And I really think this difference in personality profiles tells you a little something about why Trump won: Trump was happy to take on all comers, whereas with Democrats, disagreement on any hot-button topic (say, COVID school closures or Biden’s age) will have you cast out as a heretic. That’s not a good way to build a majority, and now Democrats no longer have one.
Abbas Alawieh is concerned for the lives of his family and friends under another Trump regime. We all are. He is one of us.
Yeah, but you’re saying this about somebody who has committed that very sin, of condemning Biden because of disagreement on a hot button topic. Who then turns around and begs for help when the predictable happened. Isn’t that somewhat hypocritical?
Are you saying it is hypocritical for him to campaign for the people in Gaza under Biden, and then continue to campaign for the people in Gaza under Trump? That’s the opposite of hypocrisy.
It is ironic that he condemned Biden because of a genocide and they both lost, and now you are condemning him because of a genocide.
It is hypocritical for him to say that costing Biden votes is “campaigning for Gaza,” then translate that over into costing Kamala Harris votes even though she’s not the one who’s been making these genocide-friendly decisions, then suddenly be panicked that Trump is clearly going to make things quite a bit worse and it may be the total end of his country and his ethnicity on the planet. That was the totally predictable result of his method of “campaigning for Gaza,” and many, many people told him that, and got accused of being pro-genocide shills for the Democrats.
If his movement had campaigned for Gaza in pretty much any other way, or if he had come out and admitted now that they fucked up and asked for help in pressuring the Trump administration or the global community, this wouldn’t be posted here.
The uncommitted movement backed Harris. While not officially endorsing her they urged voters to vote against Trump and not vote third party.
Which leaves voting for Harris, without saying the words, “vote for Harris.”
What’s your point here?
My point is that if the child isn’t vaccinated, and then dies of whooping cough, the uncle who put together a whole organized program to educate the family about the dangers of vaccines bears a lot responsibility for the tragedy.
Yes, even more so than the pharmaceutical companies who lost the people’s trust through their actions.
It would still be a heartbreaking loss if it was just Palestine that’s going to be lost. But the scale of the global tragedy is going to be much greater than just this man’s country. He’s helped to doom, not just his own family, but millions of other people’s families who weren’t even involved.
So you blame him for all of the protest voting that happened? As if people couldn’t read the news articles themselves?
He gave the Democrats a chance to realize what lay down that road. He wasn’t the one who ignored the voters and in your analogy he also laid out the dangers of not vaccinating and made a doctor’s appointment that Mom didn’t take the kids to.
Man this community is gonna have a lot of fodder for four years…
How is this a LAMF? Didn’t Uncommitted say that as much as the Democrats suck, people should still vote for them over Trump?
They didn’t say that, no. This guy tried to hedge it a little bit, by saying that Trump was much worse but stopping short of saying that people should vote for Harris as a result.
Some of his other cofounders, as of election day, were still saying people should leave the line blank or vote for Jill Stein. She got almost as many votes as Harris did, in Dearborn, and Trump picked up something like 20% more votes than he had in 2020.
It was the Harris campaign that made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election. Biden is a Christian Zionist, the genocide and de juro annexation of Palestine is exactly what he wants.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
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Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
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In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
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Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
The United States Administration is the one enabling Israel unconditionally.
Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Nothing anywhere in these comments was blaming voters. I was blaming the people who organized a whole campaign specifically to sow division and interfere with support for the only possible alternative, in this election, to full-on fascism.
I also think it’s partly the voters’ fault, in addition to being partly Biden’s fault. But I was pointing out voting numbers to argue for how effectively this particular campaign had sowed division, not to say it’s exclusively their fault.
Also, aren’t you a Stalin person anyway? Shouldn’t you be happy about the collapse of the US’s effectiveness to influence events in the world? Or is the nick meant to be ironic or edgelordy?
It’s just an edgy internet username that’s rolled over, feel free to look at my profile if you aren’t sure. Dying empires always go out violently, why would I be happy about the untold level of violence that’s going to unfold when I’m anti-violence? I support armed struggle, but only because that results when greater forces prevent any peaceful solution, resulting in people fighting for their lives against eradication.
I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here. It seems like say you aren’t blaming voters, but you are if they are uncommitted voters. The Uncommitted Movement are dedicated Democratic voters that have done everything possible within the proper channels to changing the Policy of the Democratic Party to support a permanent ceasefire only possible through the implementation of Conditional Military Aid.
They organized hundreds of thousands of Democratic Party voters and get the support of dozens of Democrat Delegates. When the Party failed to give them any consideration, they staged a peaceful protest outside the DNC, which had enough room for neocon republicans to speak but not a Palestinian American. When the campaign continued not to give them any consideration, despite the significant gains that polling was showing (as linked above) and the large majority of support from not just democrats but the general population on Conditional Military Aid, the Uncommitted Movement still did everything but Endorse Harris.
They explicitly told people not to vote the Donald Trump or Third Party. They understood the dangers of a Trump administration. They did everything in their power to get the Democratic Party to reflect the will of the people and change position from unconditional support on Israel.
It was the right thing to do from a political standpoint, it would have been a massive gain. It was the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, there is no both-sides when it comes to genocide. It was the right thing to do from a Law standpoint, both domestic with the Leahy Law and with International Humanitarian Law. There was nothing but reasons for the Democratic Party to pivot on this. If they were open to changing on public pressure, that was the time. The fact that they didn’t only goes to show that US support for this genocide is bipartisan, and that the Democratic Party would rather lose and continue the genocide rather than win and take the bare minimum steps to end it.
So what did you want to happen, should they uncommitted movement just have not bothered? Should American citizens have not cared that their loved ones in Palestine and Lebanon have been and are still being killed by American weapons? I don’t, I think that’s a completely unreasonable expectation to have for people that have been directly affected by our Administrations unconditional support for this genocide. I will absolutely not blame the election results and the continuation of this genocide on the people who are anti-genocide and did everything in their power to secure a permanent ceasefire through every democratic means possible.
The uncommitted movement was at least 1.5 million people in the general election, enough to win the swing states but not enough to explain the 10-20 million Americans that were not convinced by Harris’ Campaign to go out of their way to vote. That shows that there were many other issues with her campaign. She did not address the material needs of the working class, she ran to the right on immigration and American Jingoism, and ran another neoliberal platform of ‘nothing will fundamentally change’ when people are angry at our failing institutions and desperate for change.
Blame can be shared.
I can blame Biden for committing a crime against humanity by arming Israel, instead of doing the human thing and letting the electoral chips fall where they may. I’m not convinced it would have been the winning strategy in the election that you think it would have been, since there are a lot of voters in the US who are perfectly comfortable with killing Palestinians because they don’t really understand what the nature of the conflict is, and would see any arms embargo as betrayal of Israel in their time of need after suffering a horrific attack.
I can also apportion some blame to the voters who doomed Palestine, I think irrevocably, by letting Trump get elected. They can all be responsible for what’s about to unfold.
I’m definitely blaming the people who organized the “uncommitted” movement. That’s different from the voters. I keep saying the first one, and you keep bringing it back to the second one. This particular example of one person who’s personally responsible for pursuing and advocating a counterproductive strategy which will hurt the Palestinians, yes, I can definitely blame.
Alawieh was at least saying Trump would be worse, by the end of the campaign, but there were other co-founders who weren’t even saying that, who were recommending leaving the line blank or voting for Jill Stein. Well, they got their wish! Kamala didn’t win. Now, probably millions of people are going to die because of it. It’s not a game.
The uncommitted movement was at least 1.5 million people in the general election, enough to win the swing states but not enough to explain the 10-20 million Americans that were not convinced by Harris’ Campaign to go out of their way to vote. That shows that there were many other issues with her campaign. She did not address the material needs of the working class, she ran to the right on immigration and American Jingoism, and ran another neoliberal platform of ‘nothing will fundamentally change’ when people are angry at our failing institutions and desperate for change.
If I have cancer, and the doctor tells me about a treatment but isn’t persuasive enough about it, and I ignore them, and now I’m going to die, is that the doctor’s fault?
You’re holding Kamala responsible for three decades of Democrats ignoring the working class, and for Biden’s policies, and for a huge amount of misinformation attacking her about the economy or whatever to people who then bought it. Okay, sure. If she had been more persuasive or had better messaging, it might have helped. That doesn’t change the fact that if people had voted differently, that definitely would have helped.
I’m not convinced it would have been the winning strategy in the election that you think it would have been, since there are a lot of voters in the US who are perfectly comfortable with killing Palestinians because they don’t really understand what the nature of the conflict is, and would see any arms embargo as betrayal of Israel in their time of need after suffering a horrific attack.
This is not the case when you look at months of polling. It’s a net gain of +6 points overall. If you look at just the swing states and see the margin of votes Harris needed to win, the votes from uncommitted in the primaries would have been enough to overcome that gap. Even more so when you recognize that there are over twice as many voters in the general when compared to the primaries. If you think that there is evidence that her changing position would be a net negative, back it up with evidence. Because all the evidence points to the opposite.
I can also apportion some blame to the voters who doomed Palestine
The US administration has been doomed Palestine, without any chance from the Democratic Party, it would have been doomed regardless. The support for the genocide is bipartisan, as evidence of Israel failing to meet the aid required put forth by the US for the last 30 days and resulting in zero policy changes.
I’m definitely blaming the people who organized the “uncommitted” movement
And what does all this blame accomplish exactly? Nothing but further division by blaming minority groups for daring to advocate for representation. Those votes were completely up for grabs. The campaign decided to ignore them.
It’s not a game
Tell that to the Democratic Party. How can you say they actually cared about winning when they ignored so many voters in critical swing states and ignored the needs of working class Americans? It certainly doesn’t seem like the realized how important this election was and acted accordingly to win by any means possible.
If I have cancer, and the doctor tells me about a treatment but isn’t persuasive enough about it, and I ignore them, and now I’m going to die, is that the doctor’s fault?
The issue is that neither offered any treatment. One offered again the current ‘treatment’ that has done nothing to help your cancer, the other said that ‘treatment’ is bullshit and said try this snake oil instead. People are stupid, many said fuck either option, and some went for the oil not realizing it was venom. If the doctor recommended a change to a genuine treatment and warned about the dangers of the venom, it would be a very different story.
You’re holding Kamala responsible for three decades of Democrats ignoring the working class
I’m holding her responsible for her campaigning and her policies. I’m holding the entire Democratic Party responsible for the continuation of neoliberalism in the face of an existential crisis where left-wing populism was the obvious solution. I’m holding both the Democratic and Republican Party responsible for being beholden to the business class, racheting the country towards Fascism.
I’m not interested in echoing our points at each other indefinitely.
I’m sure she would have gained some number of “uncommitted” voters by verbally coming out against Israel’s actions. I’m saying there are other voters she would have lost.
I keep acknowledging that Biden deserves blame for his horrible Israel policy. You keep insisting that that represents “division” and “blaming,” because I’m not willing to also assign the exact same blame to Kamala Harris, exclusively, and hold the voters completely blameless on their side.
This will be my last message on the topic, since you seem to want to keep repeating your same arguments. I just wanted to clear up those two points.
I’m sure she would have gained some number of “uncommitted” voters by verbally coming out against Israel’s actions. I’m saying there are other voters she would have lost
That is taken into account, it’s still a significant net gain
I keep acknowledging that Biden deserves blame for his horrible Israel policy. You keep insisting that that represents “division” and “blaming,” because I’m not willing to also assign the exact same blame to Kamala Harris, exclusively, and hold the voters completely blameless on their side.
Harris’ Campaign was strongly influenced by people from the Biden and the Clinton administrations, possibly Obama admin too but I haven’t heard much of that. I couldn’t care less about blaming her as an individual. The campaigning and policies are still done at a party level for the most part. My point is that it’s useless to blame voters, vote shaming has never accomplished anything. If the Democratic Party is genuinely democratic, then holding them accountable is a meanful avenue for change. If the Democratic Party is not genuinely democratic, and instead only beholden to donor interests, then we all have a much larger problem on our hands which is exactly why solidarity and organizing with our communities, domestic and otherwise, is so important.
Rejecting harm reduction predictably leads to full harm.
