The officers issued him an official warning after determining his actions were not racially motivated.
Why the fuck do neo-nazis get to march through Ballarat (or any other place, really)?
Because Victoria Police will turn up to escort them.
They’re “escorting” them because they’re on shift. If they weren’t working they’d just be in the march.
Some of those who work forces…
I’m not Australian, but…
If you let the baddies march, you can identify them later and tie them to the hate-crimes when they happen.
If I was the government, I would absolutely let people show me who they are. I’d rather know what I’m up against, how many, and who amonsgt them I can dig dirt up on
I… don’t even know where to start with this.
Also, this has fuckall to do with Australia. Fascists are marching everywhere. Do we really need a repeat of 1933-1945 before we learn our history lesson?
Interesting. So, do you think that if something becomes illegal, it simply goes away?
So, for example…lets take something I feel is a natural. Homosexuality. If suddenly homosexuality suddenly became punishable by death by everyone in the world would it vanish? Would all people just be straight? No.
People are all wired differently.
Instead of repressing who people are, we should seek to understand what fears people have, what brings them comfort, educate them, highlight the ways in which we are similair as people. We should fight fascism not with oppression but inclusion.
Facists gain power by division. It’s “us” vs “them”
They lose power when “us” is all there is.
Anyway. My original point is that I would rather see the wolf for what it is and watch it, than allow it to hide amongst the flock, undetected
I normally try to engage at eye level and not be condescending. But if this following bit comes across as condescending, then that is with full intent.
I cannot possibly express in words how utterly naïve the notion of ‘fighting fascism with inclusion’ is. I’ve been around for long enough to see that it doesn’t work. Neo-Nazis haven’t been around since yesterday. The whole inclusion shtick has been tried, over and over and over. And what’s happened? They’ve become more emboldened and more omnipresent. Some 30 years ago there were massive Neo-Nazi marches and violent incidents in Germany, when Neo-Nazis set fire to asylum seeker housing in several places. Back then there were many shocked faces, and outrage, and yet we had the same voices urging calm and to engage them at eye level and not oppress them. Did it work? Fuck no.
And that whole idea of sunlight being the best disinfectant… yeah nah.
The only way to fight fascism is to make unequivocally clear that it has no place in modern society. None whatsoever.
And since you brought homosexuality into the mix, there is a key difference here: being a fascist is a choice - being homosexual is not. You are born with your sexuality, you can’t choose to be not homosexual. But you can choose to not be a fascist. However, in spite of all attempts at inclusion and meeting these people at eye level over decades, more and more of them decide they want to be fascists. How much longer would you like to try for?
I understand your frustration, and also the need to come across as condescending. You’re probably the downvote on my comment. You want to punish me, don’t you?
See, that feeling you are feeling… that frustration. It isn’t unique to you.
The primary driver in fascism is emotion. Fear, anger, frustration. Stong human emotion that lead to feeling like other people are lesser than yourself. The bad guy. The evil one. The ones that must be stopped.
Those strong feelings and the desire to shush the words of the other are exactly the kinds of things that lead to extremes.
Having strong feelings toward other people are as natural and normal as homosexuality.
When I say inclusion, I’m not talking about inviting the Nazi to roast the Jew at dinner. I’m talking about inviting everyone, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, everyone, to dinner and giving each a timer to talk.
It sounds hokey as fuck, but we need to learn to love each other as we love ourselves. Only then, can Nazi’s cease to exist. If you repress people, it only makes the hate stronger.
Anyway, there is a portion of the population that is incapable of what I mentioned above. For them, there is no cure. For them, they must be watched. If -and only if- they cause harm to others, then they need to be jailed to protect everyone else. But… I believe they’re (thankfully) rare. For everyone else, there’s hope
I understand your frustration, and also the need to come across as condescending. You’re probably the downvote on my comment. You want to punish me, don’t you?
I did not downvote you, and I don’t want to punish you, so there is no need to give me a lecture.
If -and only if- they cause harm to others, then they need to be jailed to protect everyone else.
You do not understand that by the time they’re causing harm to others, it’s too late. By then you’ve let them do their thing long enough that they feel strengthened, emboldened and justified. And that time has passed. It passed when they invaded the Capitol on 6th January 2021. It passed when the Neonazi ploughed his car into the crowds in Charlottesville. It passed when Neonazis firebombed asylum seeker homes in Germany 30 years ago. Fascists and Nazis are actively doing harm, everywhere in the world. This is what they’re here for. And society has failed to stop them. They’re here to stay now.
I’m not lecturing you, I apologize if it seemed that way. What I was trying to do is allow you to recognize that your own biases, to help explain why people jump on the fascist boat
I’m not gonna continue arguing, because it seems like you’re upset. I just hope that you can remember thenold adage: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
‘Here is why you are objectively wrong.’
'I’m sorry you feel that way. ’
Stop talking.
You are just as entitled to your opinion as I am, and I won’t be silenced by you, or anyone else for that matter.
You can stomp your feet and whine all you want to. I wouldn’t even try to stop you even if I could. You know why?
Just because I disagree with you, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t defend your right to disagree with me. Hate me if you want to, it’s your right as a human being to feel however it is that you will feel
I’m almost certain how aware of it, but you haven’t addressed the intolerance paradox.
For me the line needs to be crossed. As soon as that happens, action can be taken. But guilty-by-association isn’t enough (and that’s how I see marching)
If someone makes a legit threat (or commits a crime) against another person, then something should be done to address that (what that something is needs to be proportional and preferably reform-based)
Like what’s happening to Trump and the Jan 6th crowd. The peeps involved are being handed sentences. Evidence against the baddies need to be properly collected so that they can be brought to justice in a civilized way.
You need a visual on them for that to happen. Let them march, identify them, and keep track of their behaviour. They’re fine… until they step out of line. And if they do, you know who they are, how many, etc.
I can understand why people misunderstand me and my meaning. I look at things with empathy, a love of freedom, a deep desire for open discussions, autonomy, and belief in taking action against others only when it’s truly justifiable (such as cases of physical threat, or impending threat)
Sure ok but you haven’t actually addressed the paradox of tolerance.
It’s great that you love freedom, autonomy, and open discussions, but what if there is a group of people intent on using this inclusivity to promulgate their agenda, which is intolerance?
To say the same thing another way, these ideals are based on the premise that everyone is acting in good faith, but some are not.
As you say you need to wait until people step out of line. Modern society has determined that the “line” is somewhere before assembling in overtly intolerant groups. A parade of Nazism is already out of line.
You’re right, but we have to be careful. We can’t rely on what society deems acceptable as the total and reasonable truth. That’s how Nazism rises in the first place.
Idk if you saw that post about Ignaz Semmelweis, who proposed that docs should wash their hands (and was so mocked that he ended up having a break-down and died after a beating in the asylum). Society at the time couldn’t accept his radical new idea. There are so many times in history (Galileo spending his last years under house arrest because heliocentrism was considered heresy) where people were persecuted for having ideas that went against society
I have a mixed bag of beliefs that are frankly half-baked, which is why I’m happy to have these kinds of debates
But what I’m getting at is that I dislike repressing people and ideas just because the status quo says you should repress them- even if that means undesirable idiologies creep in. We need to examine them closely, in an open minded way that isn’t immediately crushing because we can miss opportunities for growth
I’m liberal. I believe in autonomy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. I am against genocide, racism, sexism, and all that
However- we have to let them speak and argue against them. We need to be pushing back against things like book removals, and pushing for funding of schools. It’s exhausting, and considerably more difficult, but I think it’s a better way to go
Imagine if, at these marches, you and I had a big screen which displayed the horrors of concentration camps. The images of fingernail marks embedded in the metal of the gas chambers. Images of the disease. Excerpts from the wretched experiments.
Maybe it’s naive, but I believe we would sway enough of those people marching that to weaken their cause.
Just yelling at them to shut up, or arresting them when half of them don’t even think it was real isn’t gonna work. It’ll just strengthen the cause and send them underground
I think the thing being talked about a lot less is how the neo-nazi’s who were marching weren’t stopped from what the article says.
They clearly knew from reprimanding the kid that it wasn’t right so…what were they doing other than that?
Right, why isn’t the article about the police stopping the literal neo-nazis marching in front of them instead of them traumatizing some kid?
Less than a year since introducing the law and it’s already been made useless. “oh there was nothing racial about the Nazi salute during a Nazi rally”, fucking acab.
He’s a 15yr old kid!
Can you only be racist at 18?
Likewise being a teen doesn’t change the bullshit excuse by the courts.
honestly seems more to be a case of 15 yo being an edgy idiot. hoe he learnt his lesson, fine him next time
Wrong and wrong…
If you really think there’s no different between 15 and 18, then give a 15yr old alcohol, give them a licence and let them vote.
They’re a kid that a group of Nazi fuckwits marched past and they reacted with a Nazi salute, that it.
Oh yes I remember all the times as a 15 year old I jokingly saluted neo Nazis. Classic childhood stuff, if this were 1935 Germany.
This kid should be made to undergo some sort of community service or opportunity to learn and reflect on their actions. Not given a free pass and dismissal of racism.
Oh for fuck sake, teens do stupid thing, we all did stupid things as teens without thinking about the consequences, get a grip.
Yes they do and there should be some punishment, so they learn. Otherwise Tim will jump around on another kindergarten roof until it gives way and he falls in again, but this time someone might get hurt. Speaking from experience.
A few hours community service will do the trick.
Shitting your pants being taken for questioning and given an official warning… That’s not exactly getting away with it.
And for the 50th time; they’re 15 years old, had not other issues, wasn’t known to the police and wasn’t part of the group.
Criminalizing opinions is fucking stupid.
Yeah okay mate.
Go simp for neonazis elsewhere.
Learn the difference between opinions and actions.
Sorry, my mistake. Criminalizing expressing opinions in public is fucking stupid.
You have to be a special kind of uneducated to think that throwing the Nazi salute or displaying Nazi symbolics is merely ‘expressing an opinion’.
lolok
I dislike nazis and would never do the nazi salute. I wish that other people wouldn’t do the nazi salute either. But some people are still going to do it. So the question because what do we do with those people. Do we a) Do nothing. Ignore them. b) Fine them c) Something else…
I see a lot of discussion over whether a or b is the best option, but I’d like to see more of what’s in category c. Is there anything that could change their mind? Can we send them to a counseling session? Get them to help out in a jewish community centre?
Stopping someone doing the salute is okay, but changing their mind is even better.
Imagine living in a police state.
Nazi Germany was, among other things, a police state.
Imagine that.
Gotta become the Nazis to protect yourself from the Nazis, right? What’s that quote?
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster… for when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”—Friedrich Nietzsche
You people really are ultra-keen on another era of fascism, aren’t you?
Read and understand the paradox of tolerance before you continue simping for fascists. When they get into power, they won’t browse Lemmy and check who’s been good to them. They’ll take your freedom, your human rights, no matter how much you fought for theirs.
Democracy is pretty much the only form of governance that can be used to dismantle itself. That’s what happened in 1933. It’s happening again. So it has to defend itself, and the first line of defense should be to not tolerate fascism. It’s really not that hard. So next time, before you google a fancy Nietzsche quote, maybe go to Wikipedia instead and start in 1933, see how the fascist state came about that later brought war and genocide to the world.
I said nothing about being tolerant only not criminalizing it.
Actually police states are a good thing
Sir, that is an unauthorized opinion. You’re under arrest.
Wait no not like that
