But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let’s not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let’s not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn’t that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu’s genocide because they’re worried it makes Biden look bad.
And let’s not pretend that the US isn’t a two-party system.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I’m voting for Biden.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read “One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit”…
But it doesn’t.
This whole thing of “you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side” thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn’t fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you’ve been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn’t. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
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My agenda is to see more honest discussions. It is not a hidden agenda. I am very open about it. I, and many other people, honestly believe that Joe is doing a horrific job. I also honestly believe that Trump would do a horrific job. I am disgusted by the fact that nobody who could potentially make it into the White House has shown anything but complete and utter contempt for the innocent lives in Gaza.
I absolutely refuse to pretend that Biden is great for Gaza in some pathetic attempt to trick idiots who somehow haven’t paid attention into thinking that Biden isn’t floating in am Olympic sized pool of children’s blood. I’m not saying Trump will do any better, and I’m not saying I will vote for Trump. All I am saying is that we will all be better off if vocal people like yourself were to at least try to have honest dialogs. No strawman, no hidden agenda, just plain, honest discussion. The thing that has offended you so deeply can be summed up in a single word. Honesty.
I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party.
Do tell. What criticisms do you have of the Democratic Party?
That is not at all what’s happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
I’m not campaigning for Trump.
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@Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied.
Now compare your fanfic to what actually happened.
I guess you’re conveniently forgetting about yesterday where you made an absolute fool of yourself and got caught lying.
Btw I’m STILL waiting on that answer.
Removed, civility.
Oh I know. Trust me, I don’t engage with these people with any illusions. There’s no arguing with the agitprop element here. The point of responding at all is just to identify them to the general public.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
No he doesn’t. He wouldn’t be painting them as violent protests that allows everyone to dismiss their first amendment rights if he did.
I did not mention Biden’s opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that’s why it’s important someone did mention it.
Yes, it’s vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn’t say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don’t say.
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Vote for Biden, of course. There’s no better choice, to my utter dismay.
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Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
Congratulations.
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Sorry. I’m coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I’ve said this more than a few times already.
This is the way
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don’t support the protesters are quite rare.
Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they’ve killed, and the land they’ve stolen.
It’s clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don’t know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
let’s ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don’t know what to tell you.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe “Im a Zionist” Biden gives them?
If that’s your best option, that’s what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I’d say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
She’s not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
she’s not a russian asset. this is libel.
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have fun with this comment chain. it’s a wild ride.
You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
The “Best Option” placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
I don’t think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that’s what you’re referencing
She is
Based on this article, I think they’d want Biden.
There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it’s clear which of the two you should vote for.
If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he’d only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
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Biden
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or… anything.
Take your time.
In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Yeah in response to
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
Again where did say anything about trump good?
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump’s issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote “Uncommitted” during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it’s reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
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The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support to apartheid… if a democrat even seems icky that’s more important.
But what is Genocide Joe going to do to earn MY vote.
South Park turned a whole fucking generation into “but both sides suck” idiots.
He’s not gonna be Trump. Got my vote.
Biden is required to ship weapons to Israel by law. He is doing what he can to limit Israel’s carnage. Remember the USS Liberty? Israel doesn’t care about anyone other than Israel.
Thank you for that link. It will be helpful.
A lot of people are unaware of Jonathan Pollard too.
Yup.
Would I like a better candidate? Of course. Do I want to cause untold suffering to myself and the people I love? Nope.
Not even just the people you love. This article makes it exceptionally clear that if you actually care about the Palestinians, Trump winning is the absolute worst case scenario.
Bingo.
Whatever “genocide person” does for you is irrelevant. You are someone desperately asking for others to solve your problems. At worst the rest of us will solve your problems, otherwise you might do it yourself but I have my doubts…
These “I’m not gonna vote for Biden because my principles are too important” folks are really starting to piss me off.
Where were your principles last year? The year before? Where were they when Russia invaded Ukraine? What about the Rohingya? The Yazidi? How about here at home and what Republican power - in congress and across the courts? Where will they be if Trump wins and appoints another SCOTUS judge and packs the federal courts? When hundreds of transgender Americans are murdered? When women no longer have any autonomy over their bodies?
This isn’t about your principles. It’s not about you looking cool in a keffiyeh. This is about all of us on the left working together to reduce the most harm. You in your enormous privilege are not the main character here.
I mean seriously… get the fuck over yourselves you spoiled brats.
Well put. The only principle we should be considering is saving as many lives as possible and preventing as much persecution as possible. Adherence to any principles which go against this simply shows those principles are not worth holding, not as absolutes at least.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though. The red states are just going ahead with massive civil rights violations anyways. If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore. The worst case scenario is already happening. It’s not in the future, it’s now.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though.
How do you prove or disprove this?
If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore
Do you not understand how our system of government works? Or do you just want some sort of left-leaning fascism? Admittedly, Bernie would make a great benevolent dictator… but that’s exactly the kind of thing that bites you in the ass eventually.
The president has more power than you think he does. Trump reminded us of that. And it’s simple to prove. What has he done to stop Abbot and DeSantis? He has how many federal law enforcement officers? And he hasn’t just arrested the Texas national guardsmen operating illegally on the border? Hell he could just call them to federal duty and send them to an ammo dump in Alaska.
If nothing else you’ve demonstrated your complete ignorance of how our political system works in this country. Well done!
Look up title 10 orders. The president is the commander in chief. If he won’t pull those guardsmen out of there it’s because he doesn’t mind what they’ve done.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
LOL. You are clearly ignorant of the practical implications of such things and more generally of how politics works in real terms.
Every action a president takes either gains or loses political capital. The president does not operate in a vacuum… indeed our entire system of government is designed to have checks and balances and specifically to keep the authority of a president confined.
I must say, you have such an incredibly simplistic view of this… it’s quite stunning. You literally sound like a MAGAt, begging for authoritarian control.
You are not going to get Arab-Americans to vote for Biden, forget it. You want us to carry water for someone slaughtering us while grinning. I voted for him in 2020 and that will be the last time I ever vote Democratic, the first time was for John Kerry in 2004. Voting Republican is of course not an option, it is third party from now on though I am making arrangements to leave the country. I am paying taxes to give myself PTSD watching Arabs get slaughtered with my tax money. I know most people don’t have the means to leave the US, but I do.
Biden could have stopped this genocide from day one, not only he didn’t but he continues to supply the weapons and political cover for Israel to continue massacring women and children. There’s enough Arab-Americans to swing the election one way or another. Biden and the Democratic Party will have to earn our votes rather than extract them from us by scaring us with Trump.
It’s your right to vote 3rd party, but doing so makes it only more likely that Trump will take office and ruin not just Palestine but the ability for Arab Americans and possibly every foreign born, and possibly non-white person in general, to live in the US. In our current political system, third parties count for nothing, it’s a wasted vote. I’m not thrilled by Biden either but voting for president has to be strategic.
3rd party vote just goes to Cheato Mussolini
He won in 2016 despite me voting for Clinton. In 2020 I thought Biden couldn’t be worse, but I got a genocide. In 2024 I’m voting for someone I like for a change. Clinton too is never getting a vote from after she posted this. Cheering and justifying a genocide is where I part ways with the Democratic Party.
How could have Biden stopped it on day one? Really. Tell us.
By not sending weapons, by withholding financial aid, by not justifying the crimes and by not vetoing the U.N. ceasefire vote multiple times. Reagan and Bush Sr. were able to do so. No surprise that Thurmond-loving Biden is to their right somehow.
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wrong generalization bro , it’s actually muslim americans
You are funny. Arab Americans and Muslim Americans do overlap and both care deeply about Palestine, but are still two different groups. Most Arabs in the US are actually Christian, and the news article I linked to mentioned Arab Americans.
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You are not on the left.
Being pro-palestine is not the definition of the left, the truth is things would only be worse for Palestine if Trump is elected, and in exchange for this punishment of the Dems the potential losses are immense and not just for Palestine. Being pro-palestine is very popular among the far right as well, and they are cheering for Trump just the same as you have been implicitly.
Liberalism and the Democratic Party are on the right. Joe Biden was friends with Strom Thurmond. Joe Biden demonized “busing” and other programs to integrate schools. Joe Biden cheered the slaughter of women in children in Lebanon in 1982. Biden is basically Trump but with more eloquence. Their actions are the same. Palestinians are getting slaughtered right now, protestors are getting beaten up and jailed right now. Trump is just the boogeyman Democrats use to get their voters to stop demanding anything.
Obama gave people hope. Then Biden ran a very progressive campaign after Hillary lost a normal campaign. Our principles were always in play. Nothing has changed, Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud. For the record Israel just bombed a known refugee tent camp and this is what other countries are saying. This is what the White House said. Either Biden is a joke that keeps getting played by Netanyahu or Biden thinks we’re a joke. Either way is not going to win him votes. And his entire job is to win votes by representing the people. I doubt the kids being denied their college degrees care much whose in white house when the police stormed their protest encampment.
Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud.
You have to be in a position to not be affected by Republican policies to think that. Really to be single-minded about one issue, no matter how valid in itself, while ignoring everything else that affects so many so badly.
You may think you get virtue points for this but what you are showing is just how incredibly privileged and selfish you are.
I’m not doing it for “points”. The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem. People are already dying in massive numbers, here and abroad. Democrats want to just continue the status quo, while the republicans keep changing the status quo.
The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem
It’s precisely that you can’t wrap your head around the fact that this is NOT a child’s game where you get to personally pick - for everyone else - the one issue that matters to you this week that is the problem.
If that’s true then why do we have elections at all?
This comment section is nothing but crabs in a bucket. This is why rightoids have people banning masks and forming armies of idiots while the left toils against each other. Being unified like the right has benefits but is against our ideals. We need to find a way to compromise with each other to get the most important things we can agree on done.
And yet the same people will hold their intelligence and principals in high regard.
Meanwhile, the Right keeps stacking their deck by playing tribal games with emotions.
When the "scorecard " is tallied, you’ll notice intelligence and principals don’t count for much if they’re not being represented.
All I’m looking for is spears pointed in the right direction at this point. This is it. Right here, right now. We either vote in Trump and lose all democracy or we bite our tongue and use another Biden term to get ranked choice. We can no longer afford to kick the can down the road.
Centrists will never compromise leftward.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment. The middle is a larger and more reliable voter base.
But, I think that’s going to change over the next few decades. Progressives and further left people are becoming an increasingly important and large voting bloc. Numerically it will soon make sense to compromise leftwards to get more votes than compromising with the center. We’re just not there yet.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment.
If they’re a large enough group to blame when ya lose, they’re a large enough group to compromise with.
I don’t disagree there, but that’s also why I don’t believe in blaming the left nor attributing losses to them. It isn’t a large enough group to have that much sway yet.
From a rhetorical perspective I agree – if politicians are willing to blame the left, they should be willing to work with them. Like you say, it’s logically inconsistent to blame them but also think they aren’t worth compromising with.
I also think the “rebelliousness” of leftists is overstated. I firmly believe most of them vote with Democrats so that there is harm reduction. I think a lot of the detractors are just a loud online minority. I strongly suspect for instance the “don’t threaten me with the supreme court” crowd was not even close to most of the progressives who voted in 2016. More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
It’s more than that. Clinton supporters started a PAC to get McCain elected when Obama won the nomination. And they’re the same people who keep saying “blue no matter who.”
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people. I think at the end of the day these two extremes are a dismissible collective group. Most of us can truly cooperate and agree on most things, and find the loud minority repulsive.
Along those lines, I appreciate that you have been consistently reasonable in discussions and arguments. Your criticisms are well founded in evidence and you show that it’s possible to be critical and displeased with Biden while still voting for him. That’s a level of intellectual nuance I wish I saw more of.
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people.
And yet in 2008, Obama won despite their efforts at sabotage. To hear centrists talk about it, anyone who so much as thought a positive thought regarding Bernie Sanders is solely responsible for Clinton’s loss in 2016.
We should be able to safely ignore the pampered, spoiled centrists who threw a massive tantrum when they didn’t get 100% of everything they wanted in 2008, and ignore progressives at our peril. We do the opposite.
But please, tell me how you refuse to vote for Biden “for Palestine’s safety”
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn’t handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn’t doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there’s a very clear choice who to vote for.
Really? What’s different about this and what Biden is actually doing? Biden doesn’t say the quiet part out loud. That’s it. That’s the only difference.
Where in the exact fuck does diaper don think he’s deporting US citizens to?
Hopefully a western European country.
Fun fact, if you’re targeted for deportation you can always voluntarily self deport. So if they create a diaspora there’s going to be 3 major populations of expats. Mexico, where the administration will dump them. Canada where the people who could only afford a road trip went. And the EU where people who can afford a plane ticket went.
He’ll put them up in one of his failing hotels then bill them for it.
The right wing has wanted to do this for a while. The rhetoric started with homeless people, (because everyone hates them, they’re icky), and expanded to anyone they don’t like. Hilariously, without a lot of other changes those people can still vote and if they’re getting government disability, will continue to receive that. It will also serve to make the US a pariah state as the one thing nobody wants is refugees. Even ones with money attached.
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Always did, yes.
The article doesn’t seem to mention who these “donors” are… you know - the people with enough wealth to buy the politics the proles are constantly being told to “vote harder” for that seems quite happy to listen to their preferred stuffed suit talking about crushing dissent and accelerating ongoing genocide.
Trump scum cannot be reasoned with!
Swallow your pride and vote Biden.
I also hate the choice of lesser “evil”… but, do it!
Just repeat the mantra “three supreme court justices” over and over. Even if nothing else, the next president will almost certainly shape the court for decades to come. Alito, Sotomayor, and Thomas will all almost certainly retire or die in the next four years.
Okay, good fucking luck with that. You can’t deport natural-born citizens. What a fucking dumb fuck.
You definitely can — you don’t have basic rights during a deportation hearing, such as the right to an attorney. All it takes is a bunch of law enforcement who are willing to do it and orders from above.
I said natural-born, not immigrants. This is stated by the 14th Amendment. If you are born in the U.S., legally Feds can’t deport you.
The key word in there is legally.
I see no indication that Trump would be in any way constrained by the law if in power again.
Yeah, “legally” in a world where Trump wins a 2nd term is basically, “whatever we say it is”. I’m sure if somebody complains about it not being legal, they’ll just get shot instead. It sounds like the same sort of argument that pot-heads would make, “If you ask a cop if they’re a cop, they legally have to tell you!”
You’re forgetting one thing - the constitution is just paper. It’s not gonna storm out of the archives and hunt down people who violate it. If the republican party decides to ignore it (which they have MANY times), then they’re gonna ignore it. Sure, you can piss and moan about it being illegal during the entire flight to wherever they’re sending you, but that doesn’t change the fact that you’re still on that flight.
Fight against it NOW, before you’re stuffed on a plane to somewhere else.
I would like to be deported to New Zealand please!
But yeah sit this one out because Biden isn’t dramatically changing long standing us policy.
Either way Palestinians get slaughtered, but only one way Democrats will oppose it.
It’s funny how this headline is exclusively about what Trump would do to pro-palestinian demonstrators, which comports completely with what he was doing to or wanted to do to George Floyd protestors, and yet the comments are mostly about… Joe Biden?
Stay classy, Lemmy.
